Topic Wiki

הוי זהיר בגחלתם שלא תכוה, שנשיכתן נשיכת שועל ועקיצתן עקיצת עקרב, ולחישתן לחישת שרף, וכל דבריהם כגחלי אש

« Last edited by Baruch on March 30, 2016, 01:00:08 PM »

Author Topic: The Tamar Epstein Saga  (Read 287860 times)

Offline SayWhat

  • Dansdeals Silver Elite
  • **
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 56
  • Total likes: 72
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: USA
Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #180 on: November 10, 2015, 12:46:17 PM »
How would following halacha get her a get? Just curious
Had she not walked out of Bais Din she would have gotten her Get

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 19028
  • Total likes: 15163
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #181 on: November 10, 2015, 12:46:44 PM »
Even if there are, then fine, don't abide by the law, don't let her have the kids/money and risk contempt/jail. How do we extend the right to withold a get in this or any scenario? It is obvious to me that withholding a get is like torturing someone. Are you allowed to torture for money/custody that is halachikly rightfully yours but denied by the legal system?
Taking a man's children away from him without visitation rights is not torture?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline cholent

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Aug 2014
  • Posts: 2711
  • Total likes: 525
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #182 on: November 10, 2015, 12:55:23 PM »
Had she not walked out of Bais Din she would have gotten her Get
I'm not familiar with the details of this story. Why did she do that? Doesn't seem to make sense
Don't ask stupid questions and you won't get stupid answers

Online avromie7

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Feb 2014
  • Posts: 8397
  • Total likes: 2802
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #183 on: November 10, 2015, 12:58:30 PM »
I'm not familiar with the details of this story. Why did she do that? Doesn't seem to make sense
If she would follow the rules he would not withhold the get
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline Redbull3

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Dec 2011
  • Posts: 3503
  • Total likes: 423
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Programs: Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #184 on: November 10, 2015, 01:02:49 PM »
Taking a man's children away from him without visitation rights is not torture?

Relevance? If someone is mean to you, you can be mean back? Where is that halacha.

I was/am surprised by this thread, I didn't realize there were a lot of people who supported get refusal in any instances. Probably cuz DDF is my only window into yeshivish hock.

Offline yochiek93

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2015
  • Posts: 4486
  • Total likes: 92
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #185 on: November 10, 2015, 01:05:39 PM »
How would following halacha get her a get? Just curious
If she would follow halacha.... He would've given the get already

Online avromie7

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Feb 2014
  • Posts: 8397
  • Total likes: 2802
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #186 on: November 10, 2015, 01:06:05 PM »
Relevance? If someone is mean to you, you can be mean back? Where is that halacha.

I was/am surprised by this thread, I didn't realize there were a lot of people who supported get refusal in any instances. Probably cuz DDF is my only window into yeshivish hock.
If someone is mean to you there is no reason in the world to be nice to them especially if it hurts you.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline Redbull3

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Dec 2011
  • Posts: 3503
  • Total likes: 423
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Programs: Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #187 on: November 10, 2015, 01:06:37 PM »
If she would follow halacha.... He would've given the get already

Can you explain (rather than repeat)?

Offline yochiek93

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2015
  • Posts: 4486
  • Total likes: 92
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #188 on: November 10, 2015, 01:10:45 PM »
Can you explain (rather than repeat)?
If lets say she wants x amount of money (ksuba) and the kids with no visitation rights with child support and alimony... Then he obviously won't want to give a get if she was rational in the divorce proceedings he would've given the get
BTW could be he really is a terrible guy.... But just look at the other side also don't right away blame the  husband.

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 19028
  • Total likes: 15163
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #189 on: November 10, 2015, 01:11:39 PM »
Relevance? If someone is mean to you, you can be mean back? Where is that halacha.

I was/am surprised by this thread, I didn't realize there were a lot of people who supported get refusal in any instances. Probably cuz DDF is my only window into yeshivish hock.
As Avromie7 wrote, she can end it in a jiffy. (not talking about this case butin many general cases) All she needs to do is stop trying to take his kids and all his money and future income away from him.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Redbull3

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Dec 2011
  • Posts: 3503
  • Total likes: 423
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Programs: Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #190 on: November 10, 2015, 01:19:51 PM »
If lets say she wants x amount of money (ksuba) and the kids with no visitation rights with child support and alimony... Then he obviously won't want to give a get if she was rational in the divorce proceedings he would've given the get
BTW could be he really is a terrible guy.... But just look at the other side also don't right away blame the  husband.
As Avromie7 wrote, she can end it in a jiffy. (not talking about this case butin many general cases) All she needs to do is stop trying to take his kids and all his money and future income away from him.
"Just, like, give him what he wants and then we will free you" - why should she concede anything in order to be freed? The price of freedom should be $0. Other stuff can be resolved separately, the Get itself shouldn't be tied to it. Guys should give gets or get a cattle prod.
Withholding a Get is abusive and serves one purpose.. one last act of maintaining control over the woman, not letting her remarry. It is insane that you guys want to assign any kind of terms to a woman in order to receive a Get.

Offline SayWhat

  • Dansdeals Silver Elite
  • **
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 56
  • Total likes: 72
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: USA
Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #191 on: November 10, 2015, 01:20:56 PM »
I'm not familiar with the details of this story. Why did she do that? Doesn't seem to make sense
She got a better deal in the secular courts  than she would have gotten in Bais Din. She figured she could get the Get later.

Offline a mirrer

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Dec 2014
  • Posts: 1328
  • Total likes: 51
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 10
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: israel
Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #192 on: November 10, 2015, 01:22:34 PM »
"Just, like, give him what he wants and then we will free you" - why should she concede anything in order to be freed? The price of freedom should be $0. Other stuff can be resolved separately, the Get itself shouldn't be tied to it. Guys should give gets or get a cattle prod.
Withholding a Get is abusive and serves one purpose.. one last act of maintaining control over the woman, not letting her remarry. It is insane that you guys want to assign any kind of terms to a woman in order to receive a Get.
not when the woman doesn't listen to din tora  (disclaimer i have no idea what the story was in this case)

Offline yuneeq

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jan 2013
  • Posts: 8920
  • Total likes: 4115
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 10
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: NJ
Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #193 on: November 10, 2015, 01:25:23 PM »
"Just, like, give him what he wants and then we will free you" - why should she concede anything in order to be freed? The price of freedom should be $0. Other stuff can be resolved separately, the Get itself shouldn't be tied to it. Guys should give gets or get a cattle prod.
Withholding a Get is abusive and serves one purpose.. one last act of maintaining control over the woman, not letting her remarry. It is insane that you guys want to assign any kind of terms to a woman in order to receive a Get.

The price of a get should be $0. I agree.
Both for her and for him.
The problem starts when she tries to unfairly extract money from him and take the get.
Visibly Jewish

Offline a mirrer

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Dec 2014
  • Posts: 1328
  • Total likes: 51
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 10
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: israel
Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #194 on: November 10, 2015, 01:26:15 PM »
The price of a get should be $0. I agree.
Both for her and for him.
besides for kesuba

Offline Baruch

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2013
  • Posts: 2615
  • Total likes: 336
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #195 on: November 10, 2015, 01:26:21 PM »
"Just, like, give him what he wants and then we will free you" - why should she concede anything in order to be freed? The price of freedom should be $0. Other stuff can be resolved separately, the Get itself shouldn't be tied to it. Guys should give gets or get a cattle prod.
Withholding a Get is abusive and serves one purpose.. one last act of maintaining control over the woman, not letting her remarry. It is insane that you guys want to assign any kind of terms to a woman in order to receive a Get.
I have no clue to the facts of the Tamar Epstein case.

But if a man feels that the courts took away his visitation rights unfairly.

And he believes that his (ex) wife is acting unfairly.

I see no reason why he shouldn't use a get as leverage.

I'm sure you would too. Can you imagine losing the right to see your children?


If she used unfair tactics (lying) in the power struggle, so should you!

Offline yochiek93

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2015
  • Posts: 4486
  • Total likes: 92
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #196 on: November 10, 2015, 01:26:53 PM »
"Just, like, give him what he wants and then we will free you" - why should she concede anything in order to be freed? The price of freedom should be $0. Other stuff can be resolved separately, the Get itself shouldn't be tied to it. Guys should give gets or get a cattle prod.
Withholding a Get is abusive and serves one purpose.. one last act of maintaining control over the woman, not letting her remarry. It is insane that you guys want to assign any kind of terms to a woman in order to receive a Get.
What did you say a few posts up "if someone is mean to you doesn't mean you can be back so if a husband withholds a get that means he should be tortured into giving it?
And just BTW reread my post all I'm saying is look at both sides don't just judge

Offline Redbull3

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Dec 2011
  • Posts: 3503
  • Total likes: 423
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Programs: Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #197 on: November 10, 2015, 01:28:07 PM »
The price of a get should be $0. I agree.
Both for her and for him.
The problem starts when she tries to unfairly extract money from him and take the get.
Let's say she broke into his house, beat him up and stole his money. Even then, you think withholding a Get as "punishment" is less than pure evil? I just can't see that side. Am I the only one?

Offline yochiek93

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2015
  • Posts: 4486
  • Total likes: 92
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #198 on: November 10, 2015, 01:28:12 PM »
besides for kesuba
That all depends on who walks out on who.... There are cases where the guy is not חייב to pay the kesuba

Offline Redbull3

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Dec 2011
  • Posts: 3503
  • Total likes: 423
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Programs: Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #199 on: November 10, 2015, 01:30:57 PM »
What did you say a few posts up "if someone is mean to you doesn't mean you can be back so if a husband withholds a get that means he should be tortured into giving it?
And just BTW reread my post all I'm saying is look at both sides don't just judge
You're right actually very good- I back off my cattle prod comment.