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הוי זהיר בגחלתם שלא תכוה, שנשיכתן נשיכת שועל ועקיצתן עקיצת עקרב, ולחישתן לחישת שרף, וכל דבריהם כגחלי אש

« Last edited by Baruch on March 30, 2016, 01:00:08 PM »

Author Topic: The Tamar Epstein Saga  (Read 288012 times)

Offline SayWhat

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #420 on: November 29, 2015, 07:05:53 PM »
Let us assume that no bais din gave a psak that he is mechuyav to give a get. This is still a far cry from your attacks on them. Anyone who reads your posts in this thread can see that this was the sole fact which you posted. That you are claiming this as proof that you are posting no attacks only facts shows how ridiculous your statements are. After calling them all names in the book you mention one small fact which even if 100% true as you presented it does not even come close to justifying your attacks.

I addition I will point out that the date of the letter you posted is in 2010, a good few years before he wrote that the B'D paskened that he is mechuyav. The letter itself specifically states "at this time".

I have no pre-conceived outcome here. On the other hand, before writing the way you did about a Rosh Yeshiva there is a high standard of evidence required. You have not presented any such evidence. As I wrote before,You have not yet done so.

You are correct that the letter is from 2010 - now it's your job to prove me wrong and find something more recent to prove I'm the liar. In the absence of that document I will assume there isn't any.

There are letters from:
Hisachadus http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/11/hisachadus-harabbonim-satmar-protests.html
R' Pinchus Rabinowitz http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/11/tamar-epstein-protest-from-rav-pinchus.html
R Shlomo Miller, R' E B Wachtfogel, R Moshe Green & R Yechiel Tauber  http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/11/tamar-epstein-translation-of-protest-by.html
R Moshe Sterbuch http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/11/rav-moshe-sternbuch-stronlgy-condemns.html
R Aharon Feldman http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/11/rav-aharon-feldmans-letter-against.html

Read what R Sternbuch wrote about the Heter "And I saw the tesuva that "freed" her - I hate to say this but the teshuva is total nonsence"

Before you jump on me and condemn me to eternal hell - those were his words not mine.

And all of this means nothing to you because I'm posting anonymously?

None of these letters give you an inkling that maybe, just maybe there is an issue here?

Does the letter from R Feldman reach your "high standard of evidence required"?

Does the fact that he writes that throughout the lengthy court proceedings that was never a mention by the wife that the husband is mentally ill. You don't think that "minor" detail would have been brought up prior to this "tesuva"?

The fact that at 11:45 today you wrote "I will definitely agree that there is no machlokes which I see here. Based on what I see the most likely scenario is something along the lines that R Sholom spoke to R Nota with some hypotheticals which R Nota said can be  used as a heter if she meets certain conditions at which point she went and got married without having met those conditions claiming that she got a heter from him when she really did not." shows your complete ignorance on this matter in light of this document http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/11/tamar-epsteins-heter-r-shlomo.html which shows R Shalom was involved in every detail of the heter.

You can say all the above letters are fake, they didn't mean it, had they known what you know they would have never written it - whatever makes you feel good.

You are so bias that the truth could smack you upside the head and you still wouldn't see it.

Oh and I almost forgot - You don't know who I am so everything I write is irrelevant to you.

PS - If there wasn't enough outrage over R Shalom's "Heter" the Eidah Charedis issued a formal protest as well.
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/11/tamar-epsteins-heter-protest-of-eidah.html


 


Offline avromie7

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #421 on: November 29, 2015, 07:18:04 PM »
I can't read it; too blurry.  And how'd he get the letters anyway? I'm calling fake.
IME he verifies before he posts letters (I don't remember if he'll post a letter with a disclaimer that he can't verify it's authenticity)
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline Aaaron

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #422 on: November 29, 2015, 07:19:46 PM »
You are correct that the letter is from 2010 - now it's your job to prove me wrong and find something more recent to prove I'm the liar. In the absence of that document I will assume there isn't any.

There are letters from:
Hisachadus http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/11/hisachadus-harabbonim-satmar-protests.html
R' Pinchus Rabinowitz http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/11/tamar-epstein-protest-from-rav-pinchus.html
R Shlomo Miller, R' E B Wachtfogel, R Moshe Green & R Yechiel Tauber  http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/11/tamar-epstein-translation-of-protest-by.html
R Moshe Sterbuch http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/11/rav-moshe-sternbuch-stronlgy-condemns.html
R Aharon Feldman http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/11/rav-aharon-feldmans-letter-against.html

Read what R Sternbuch wrote about the Heter "And I saw the tesuva that "freed" her - I hate to say this but the teshuva is total nonsence"

Before you jump on me and condemn me to eternal hell - those were his words not mine.

And all of this means nothing to you because I'm posting anonymously?

None of these letters give you an inkling that maybe, just maybe there is an issue here?

Does the letter from R Feldman reach your "high standard of evidence required"?

Does the fact that he writes that throughout the lengthy court proceedings that was never a mention by the wife that the husband is mentally ill. You don't think that "minor" detail would have been brought up prior to this "tesuva"?

The fact that at 11:45 today you wrote "I will definitely agree that there is no machlokes which I see here. Based on what I see the most likely scenario is something along the lines that R Sholom spoke to R Nota with some hypotheticals which R Nota said can be  used as a heter if she meets certain conditions at which point she went and got married without having met those conditions claiming that she got a heter from him when she really did not." shows your complete ignorance on this matter in light of this document http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/11/tamar-epsteins-heter-r-shlomo.html which shows R Shalom was involved in every detail of the heter.

You can say all the above letters are fake, they didn't mean it, had they known what you know they would have never written it - whatever makes you feel good.

You are so bias that the truth could smack you upside the head and you still wouldn't see it.

Oh and I almost forgot - You don't know who I am so everything I write is irrelevant to you.

PS - If there wasn't enough outrage over R Shalom's "Heter" the Eidah Charedis issued a formal protest as well.
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/11/tamar-epsteins-heter-protest-of-eidah.html

He's not disagreeing with you.  He's calling you out for your rebuke, word-choice, and general appearance of being related to one side.  So, are you?  A relative or colleague or friend, that is.

Offline SayWhat

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #423 on: November 29, 2015, 07:30:29 PM »
He hasn't said any information at all and only attacked people
No he is saying that I am only attacking people without any information

Offline aygart

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #424 on: November 29, 2015, 07:34:06 PM »
Finally you are mentioning substance. About time. I will now explain why I don't feel that the needed standard of proof has been met by what you have quoted.

I have not made any claims at all and therefore have no need to prove anything. I make no claim that I know the ins and outs of the case. I simply stated that a letter from five years ago which has a disclaimer of "at this time" does not meet the burden of proof needed. If you have more info on that aspect let us know.

You are bringing all of these quotes on the assumption that there was a heter given. I have not yet seen that at all. The closest to it is R Sholom writing that to R Nota that R Nota gave one in writing I have not seen it or anything else of the sort and R Nota seems to be denying it. Is it clear that this heter was actually finalized? Not from what I have seen. As I have written before, the closest any of these letters go to making any claims about any people is R Shternbuch based upon "a reliable source" and even that was not about the actual heter. They have not made personal attacks. Maybe you should follow in the footsteps of the Gedolim you are quoting and do the same.

As someone wrote to me via PM, maybe you should just give her the Get and be done with it......
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline aygart

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #425 on: November 29, 2015, 07:35:10 PM »
No he is saying that I am only attacking people without any information
That is what happened. Just look back. You did not mention any information at all until late today. I never wrote that you do not have information only that if you do you have been quiet about it.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2015, 07:44:10 PM by aygart »
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline cs50

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #426 on: November 29, 2015, 07:58:14 PM »

No he is saying that I am only attacking people without any information
So how about this....you may have all the facts and information correct. But please please answer this question: what gives YOU the right to call people who are much greater than you names and degrade- even though you may be correct with all your fact checking. That question you still keep on avoiding and we will never get an answer for because you don't have an answer. Please correct if I'm wrong but I haven't seen an answer to it from you.

Offline SayWhat

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #427 on: November 29, 2015, 08:10:14 PM »
So how about this....you may have all the facts and information correct. But please please answer this question: what gives YOU the right to call people who are much greater than you names and degrade- even though you may be correct with all your fact checking. That question you still keep on avoiding and we will never get an answer for because you don't have an answer. Please correct if I'm wrong but I haven't seen an answer to it from you.
What names did I call people?
 

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #428 on: November 29, 2015, 08:46:42 PM »
FYI, this was ready to go out many weeks ago but the gaavad held it up until the facts were double triple verified.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #429 on: November 29, 2015, 08:52:52 PM »
Finally you are mentioning substance. About time. I will now explain why I don't feel that the needed standard of proof has been met by what you have quoted.

I have not made any claims at all and therefore have no need to prove anything. I make no claim that I know the ins and outs of the case. I simply stated that a letter from five years ago which has a disclaimer of "at this time" does not meet the burden of proof needed. If you have more info on that aspect let us know.

You are bringing all of these quotes on the assumption that there was a heter given. I have not yet seen that at all. The closest to it is R Sholom writing that to R Nota that R Nota gave one in writing I have not seen it or anything else of the sort and R Nota seems to be denying it. Is it clear that this heter was actually finalized? Not from what I have seen. As I have written before, the closest any of these letters go to making any claims about any people is R Shternbuch based upon "a reliable source" and even that was not about the actual heter. They have not made personal attacks. Maybe you should follow in the footsteps of the Gedolim you are quoting and do the same.

As someone wrote to me via PM, maybe you should just give her the Get and be done with it......
Your argument is ridiculous.
TE is living with another man!!! She did this at the direction of R Sholom with the direct support of R Notta (and possibly even the support of R Shmuel?? - unbelievable imho)

The argument that she did this on her own is simply not going to fly. - She is an ostensibly frum and sane woman, and would not live with another man without a clear directive from her Rabbis.  Give it up.

נבלה נעשתה בישראל

Offline aygart

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #430 on: November 29, 2015, 08:53:07 PM »
What names did I call people?
I don't think he meant literally calling names.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline aygart

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #431 on: November 29, 2015, 08:56:38 PM »
Your argument is ridiculous.
TE is living with another man!!! She did this at the direction of R Sholom with the direct support of R Notta (and possibly even the support of R Shmuel?? - unbelievable imho)

The argument that she did this on her own is simply not going to fly. - She is an ostensibly frum and sane woman, and would not live with another man without a clear directive from her Rabbis.  Give it up.

נבלה נעשתה בישראל
Do you realize what you are saying? For her to go on her own or base herself on an unfinalized discussion is unbelievable since she is frum and sane, but to believe that the rabbonim were matir her based on stupidity that you can believe?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline yochiek93

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #432 on: November 29, 2015, 08:57:05 PM »
Do you realize what you are saying? For her to go on her own or base herself on an unfinalized discussion is unbelievable since she is frum and sane, but to believe that the rabbonim were matir her based on stupidity that you can believe?
+1

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #433 on: November 29, 2015, 09:00:56 PM »
Do you realize what you are saying? For her to go on her own or base herself on an unfinalized discussion is unbelievable since she is frum and sane, but to believe that the rabbonim were matir her based on stupidity that you can believe?

The fact that R Sholom held she is muteres and actively shopped a heter is undeniable.
So no, its not a stretch that he managed to wrangle something out of R Notta, and then proceed to direct her to marry. In fact, this is precisely what happened!

Offline Ergel

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #434 on: November 29, 2015, 09:01:39 PM »
Seems like you have a real axe to grind. Everyone has questions about what happened here, but you seem to be very eager to pile on. You sure you have no connection to the original ba'al?
#preach
What does that mean?

As someone wrote to me via PM, maybe you should just give her the Get and be done with it......
Pottery good, huh?
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline Ergel

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #435 on: November 29, 2015, 09:02:26 PM »
The fact that R Sholom held she is muteres and actively shopped a heter is undeniable.
So no, its not a stretch that he managed to wrangle something out of R Notta, and then proceed to direct her to marry. In fact, this is precisely what happened!
So it would seem. Still very hard to believe
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline SayWhat

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #436 on: November 29, 2015, 09:28:23 PM »
I don't think he meant literally calling names.
Ok so it wasn't literally name calling, what was it exactly?

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Offline SayWhat

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #438 on: November 29, 2015, 10:08:45 PM »
That is what happened. Just look back. You did not mention any information at all until late today. I never wrote that you do not have information only that if you do you have been quiet about it.
You shouldn't be commenting on topics that you know nothing about.

Offline aygart

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #439 on: November 29, 2015, 10:26:38 PM »
Well, if you have information that we have not yet seen then lets go back to where we started and instead hiding behind a new name made specially for this thread to espouse innuendo put your reputation on the line or at least give us these facts you are hiding from us.
Feelings don't care about your facts