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הוי זהיר בגחלתם שלא תכוה, שנשיכתן נשיכת שועל ועקיצתן עקיצת עקרב, ולחישתן לחישת שרף, וכל דבריהם כגחלי אש

« Last edited by Baruch on March 30, 2016, 01:00:08 PM »

Author Topic: The Tamar Epstein Saga  (Read 291354 times)

Offline SayWhat

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #500 on: November 30, 2015, 10:35:44 PM »

And you are 100% sure about that? I want proof because I've seen this time and time again that a rov said.... When it was all based on what his gabboim told him
See the letter from Rav EB Wachfogel & R Shlomo Miller
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/11/tamar-epstein-protest-against-heter-of.html

See the letter from Rav Aharon Feldman
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2015-11-08T21:40:00%2B02:00&max-results=11&start=41&by-date=false

These are American (R Miller is from Canada) Rabbonim who don't have Gabboim checking out the facts

Offline Ergel

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #501 on: November 30, 2015, 10:45:57 PM »
I know that Rav Miller personally spoke to two psychiatrists about the case
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #502 on: November 30, 2015, 10:51:25 PM »
I know that Rav Miller personally spoke to two psychiatrists about the case
Two psychiatrist who were actually involved with the couple or just two psychiatrists?

Offline Ergel

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #503 on: November 30, 2015, 10:57:22 PM »
The latter
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline chaimmayer

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #504 on: November 30, 2015, 11:13:50 PM »
I meant here
 BTW from my experience by all these rabbonim in Israel they themselves don't look into it personally they trust their חצר but nebach the gabboim are not trustworthy
As someone who was a Gabbi by רשז"א once told me alot of the gabboim are like גיחזי
There are sad,y way too many cases where it seems that letters and bans come out where no research was done and no one bothered to figure out the other side of the story.
Thankfully that does not appear to be the case here but it sure makes me quite wary!

Offline yochiek93

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #505 on: November 30, 2015, 11:19:05 PM »
There are sad,y way too many cases where it seems that letters and bans come out where no research was done and no one bothered to figure out the other side of the story.
Thankfully that does not appear to be the case here but it sure makes me quite wary!
That's the reason why we should be wary now too, not just jump the gun.

Offline yuneeq

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #506 on: November 30, 2015, 11:20:51 PM »
That's the reason why we should be wary now too, not just jump the gun.

Just give it up.
There's unanimous support against the heter, you're literally grasping at anything right now.
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Offline henche

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #507 on: November 30, 2015, 11:23:00 PM »
I assume any psychiatrist who talked to him would be bound by confidentiality not to tell the rabbis about it. 

Offline yuneeq

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #508 on: November 30, 2015, 11:24:26 PM »
I assume any psychiatrist who talked to him would be bound by confidentiality not to tell the rabbis about it.

That is assuming they were licensed psychiatrists or they had him as a patient.
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Offline yochiek93

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #509 on: November 30, 2015, 11:28:08 PM »
Just give it up.
There's unanimous support against the heter, you're literally grasping at anything right now.
I'm actually not saying anything pro or against the heter all I'm saying is don't bad mouth rabbonim when you think you know a story that you don't that's the end of it as I posted earlier I'm not a posek to judge this case so I will not judge but to say something against rabbonim that is intolerable

Offline SayWhat

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #510 on: November 30, 2015, 11:28:52 PM »
That is assuming they were licensed psychiatrists or they had him as a patient.
From Rav Aharon Feldman's letter (Rosh Yeshiva of Ner Yisroel and member of the Moetais of America)

"I saw the report that Rabbi Greenblatt relied on for his psak. This expert therapist acknowledged that he never met with the husband but only with the wife."

Does anybody else see a problem with this????

Offline SayWhat

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #511 on: November 30, 2015, 11:32:16 PM »
I'm actually not saying anything pro or against the heter all I'm saying is don't bad mouth rabbonim when you think you know a story that you don't that's the end of it as I posted earlier I'm not a posek to judge this case so I will not judge but to say something against rabbonim that is intolerable
Why is it that it is ok for a Rabbi to call somebody mentally ill when if you have read any of the ten letters posted they all say that he is clearly not?

G-d put a brain in our heads to think and use reason.

Offline yochiek93

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #512 on: November 30, 2015, 11:37:45 PM »
Why is it that it is ok for a Rabbi to call somebody mentally ill when if you have read any of the ten letters posted they all say that he is clearly not?

G-d put a brain in our heads to think and use reason.
And הלכות שמירת הלשון also which they know and you don't so go learn it and then talk about people
I'm not saying that what happened here doesn't look terrible it does, just why should we all go to hell for it.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #513 on: November 30, 2015, 11:47:56 PM »


And הלכות שמירת הלשון also which they know and you don't so go learn it and then talk about people
I'm not saying that what happened here doesn't look terrible it does, just why should we all go to hell for it.

You're basically saying what everyone else is saying. This looks terrible.

Almost noone here "bashed gedolim" (and if they did it was pages back.)

Please define exactly why you think everyone is "going to hell"?

I guess not discussing this is one way to deal with the strong sense of betrayal that many feel...

Offline yochiek93

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #514 on: November 30, 2015, 11:53:56 PM »

You're basically saying what everyone else is saying. This looks terrible.

Almost noone here "bashed gedolim" (and if they did it was pages back.)

Please define exactly why you think everyone is "going to hell"?

I guess not discussing this is one way to deal with the strong sense of betrayal that many feel...
There is a difference between looks terrible and people saying they are 100% sure beyond a shadow of a doubt that its terrible and when people just assume without the whole story they imply that the rabbonim are incompetent that is why I said that
Let's all wait and see when the whole story is out instead of assuming
I'm out

Offline yuneeq

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #515 on: November 30, 2015, 11:58:20 PM »
There is a difference between looks terrible and people saying they are 100% sure beyond a shadow of a doubt that its terrible and when people just assume without the whole story they imply that the rabbonim are incompetent that is why I said that
Let's all wait and see when the whole story is out instead of assuming
I'm out

What if your rabbi tells you it's a terrible situation and you should protest it?
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Offline yochiek93

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #516 on: November 30, 2015, 11:59:17 PM »
What if your rabbi tells you it's a terrible situation and you should protest it?
Then I will do as he says

Offline yuneeq

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #517 on: December 01, 2015, 12:00:01 AM »
Then I will do as he says

Well there are plenty of rabbis that say exactly that.
And I'm sure some people here are followers.

No need to worry about them.
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Offline yochiek93

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #518 on: December 01, 2015, 12:02:55 AM »
Well there are plenty of rabbis that say exactly that.
And I'm sure some people there are followers.
I'd rather not go in circles I'm not saying not to protest it by all means make your machoh and if you want block kikar shabbos....... But there is a Torah way of making a machoh.
I'm out.

Offline yakrot

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The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #519 on: December 01, 2015, 01:23:36 AM »
At this point I'm so confused!! Can someone please make a wiki with who's arguing with who.

Only thing I think I understand is that yochiek93 thinks that until the perpetrators themselves have admitted wrongdoing (or mistake making,however you look at it) nobody has any right to believe other ppl or rabanim that insist there was wrongdoing (or mistake making).
I have such a headache trying to figure out if anyone is actually arguing about the case or just arguing about whether to argue