Topic Wiki

הוי זהיר בגחלתם שלא תכוה, שנשיכתן נשיכת שועל ועקיצתן עקיצת עקרב, ולחישתן לחישת שרף, וכל דבריהם כגחלי אש

« Last edited by Baruch on March 30, 2016, 01:00:08 PM »

Author Topic: The Tamar Epstein Saga  (Read 276738 times)

Offline henche

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2011
  • Posts: 4461
  • Total likes: 449
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #700 on: December 08, 2015, 09:13:31 AM »
Aygart -
The husband in Rebbe Moshes tesuva where Rebbe Moshe annulled the marriage  (which this case is supposedly based off of) was in a mental institution, walked around without clothes on and had tried to kill himself. Even if he gave a get it probably wouldn't have been good because of his mental illness.

The current husband, Aharon Friedman for the past bunch of years  (not sure exactly but I think more than 5) has worked as the tax counsel for the House Ways and Means committee. In other words his boss until last month was Congressman Paul Ryan who is now the speaker of the house. His job entails dealing with other high ranking members of Congress, lobbyists and CEO's of fortune 100 companies. Do you think that someone who has had this job for year's is mentally ill like the husband in Rav Moshes tesuva?

If you read the letter from the Baltimore Bais Din it clearly states that when asked why she wants a divorce Tamar said that her husband wasn't social enough for her. Don't you think that if her husband was suffering from an incurable mental illness she might have mentioned that to the Bais Din as to way she wanted a Get?

The expert psychologist who said that the husband is mentally ill never met or examined the husband and only based the report off of what Tamar said about him.

Aygart - i have made 3 points to explain why i think that the husband is not mentally ill - your thoughts.

To be fair, the guy in Rav Moshe's case was obviously not doing all that stuff openly when they got married, or it wouldn't have been a taus. So he obviously was able to have it under control for long periods of time.

Offline dealfinder85

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Feb 2013
  • Posts: 3580
  • Total likes: 9
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
    • View Profile
Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #701 on: December 08, 2015, 09:23:06 AM »
Wow. You no longer get the benefit of the doubt. Thanks for clarifying that you were *intentionally* being mevazeh a talmid chuchem b'rabim.

May God have mercy on your soul. I hope He gives you the benefit of the doubt.
again, very sad

Offline Moshe123

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Sep 2012
  • Posts: 6228
  • Total likes: 916
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Spring Valley
  • Programs: Lost
Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #702 on: December 08, 2015, 09:25:59 AM »
Wow. You no longer get the benefit of the doubt. Thanks for clarifying that you were *intentionally* being mevazeh a talmid chuchem b'rabim.

May God have mercy on your soul. I hope He gives you the benefit of the doubt.


This is the very definition of במקום שיש חילול השם אין חולקים כבוד לרב

Offline dealfinder85

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Feb 2013
  • Posts: 3580
  • Total likes: 9
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
    • View Profile
Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #703 on: December 08, 2015, 09:28:03 AM »
This is the very definition of במקום שיש חילול השם אין חולקים כבוד לרב
he just doesnt quit when he has the chance

Offline lunatic

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2009
  • Posts: 4459
  • Total likes: 29
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 8
    • View Profile
Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #704 on: December 08, 2015, 09:31:43 AM »
Wow. You no longer get the benefit of the doubt. Thanks for clarifying that you were *intentionally* being mevazeh a talmid chuchem b'rabim.

May God have mercy on your soul. I hope He gives you the benefit of the doubt.
+1000
This is the very definition of במקום שיש חילול השם אין חולקים כבוד לרב
Who the heck are you to decide. When you have even 1% of the torah knowledge of this rav,  come back here

Offline dealfinder85

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Feb 2013
  • Posts: 3580
  • Total likes: 9
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
    • View Profile
Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #705 on: December 08, 2015, 09:32:28 AM »
Who the heck are you to decide. When you have even 1% of the torah knowledge of this rav,  come back here
+1000

Offline Sammy82

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2011
  • Posts: 1507
  • Total likes: 430
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: AWAY
Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #706 on: December 08, 2015, 09:34:04 AM »
Exactly.
NG is playing golem.
A few guys are questioning why I removed the R? Because he freaking married an eishes ish with either having no clue, or blatant violation of halacha, whichever is worse!
hashem yerachem

Offline Ergel

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
  • Posts: 13070
  • Total likes: 905
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #707 on: December 08, 2015, 09:39:27 AM »
He was mesader kidushin. They are telling him to separate the couple asap.

He has now been well informed that the marriage that he arranged is illegitimate.
What makes you think he's close with the couple and has the power to separate them?
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 18411
  • Total likes: 14587
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #708 on: December 08, 2015, 09:45:44 AM »
Aygart -
The husband in Rebbe Moshes tesuva where Rebbe Moshe annulled the marriage  (which this case is supposedly based off of) was in a mental institution, walked around without clothes on and had tried to kill himself. Even if he gave a get it probably wouldn't have been good because of his mental illness.

The current husband, Aharon Friedman for the past bunch of years  (not sure exactly but I think more than 5) has worked as the tax counsel for the House Ways and Means committee. In other words his boss until last month was Congressman Paul Ryan who is now the speaker of the house. His job entails dealing with other high ranking members of Congress, lobbyists and CEO's of fortune 100 companies. Do you think that someone who has had this job for year's is mentally ill like the husband in Rav Moshes tesuva?

If you read the letter from the Baltimore Bais Din it clearly states that when asked why she wants a divorce Tamar said that her husband wasn't social enough for her. Don't you think that if her husband was suffering from an incurable mental illness she might have mentioned that to the Bais Din as to way she wanted a Get?

The expert psychologist who said that the husband is mentally ill never met or examined the husband and only based the report off of what Tamar said about him.

Aygart - i have made 3 points to explain why i think that the husband is not mentally ill - your thoughts.
Your questioning whether or not he meets the full level of illness described by R Moshe is definitely a valid question and is central to the letters against the heter. That does not translate into them being a lie.

I do not remember having seen the BBD saying that anything was due to his not being social enough. I did see that they wrote that she immediately said that he was unable to mingle with others and mentioned cases where he didn't act properly with others. Please let us know where they wrote as you claim.

Your last point is not the way the letters of the matirim spell it out. They write that at the very least someone met with them together.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Moshe123

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Sep 2012
  • Posts: 6228
  • Total likes: 916
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Spring Valley
  • Programs: Lost
Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #709 on: December 08, 2015, 09:46:29 AM »
+1000Who the heck are you to decide. When you have even 1% of the torah knowledge of this rav,  come back here


The numerous letters from leading poskim who called the situation a chilul hashem.

Offline lunatic

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2009
  • Posts: 4459
  • Total likes: 29
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 8
    • View Profile
Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #710 on: December 08, 2015, 09:51:46 AM »
The numerous letters from leading poskim who called the situation a chilul hashem.
That may or may not be true,  but it is certainly not your place to say.  You have no business to make such an outrageous statement

Offline SayWhat

  • Dansdeals Silver Elite
  • **
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 56
  • Total likes: 72
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: USA
Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #711 on: December 08, 2015, 09:52:33 AM »
Aygart - It doesn't reach the full level? It doesn't reach any level. You are really unbelievable.

Offline SayWhat

  • Dansdeals Silver Elite
  • **
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 56
  • Total likes: 72
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: USA
Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #712 on: December 08, 2015, 10:02:00 AM »
This heter is the biggest lie, the biggest open distortion of halacha in recent memory. There is no one, not Charadei not Chasidish not YU - nobody that is defending what happened.
 

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 18411
  • Total likes: 14587
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #713 on: December 08, 2015, 10:05:57 AM »
Aygart - It doesn't reach the full level? It doesn't reach any level. You are really unbelievable.
You are making a yet unproven assumption that he has no personality disorder. I understand that there are questions about the diagnosis but do not see any reason yet to call it a straight out lie.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 18411
  • Total likes: 14587
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #714 on: December 08, 2015, 10:06:50 AM »
This heter is the biggest lie, the biggest open distortion of halacha in recent memory. There is no one, not Charadei not Chasidish not YU - nobody that is defending what happened.
 
I have still not yet seen anyone having given a final shtemple on any heter.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Baruch

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2013
  • Posts: 2615
  • Total likes: 336
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #715 on: December 08, 2015, 10:08:50 AM »
This is the very definition of במקום שיש חילול השם אין חולקים כבוד לרב
Dimwit,
Even the Rabbanim who said not to accept his Gittin wrote "Harav".
Do you know why?
Because they have yiras shamayim.

How do you have no fear of the curses that Chazal promise to a mevazeh talmid chacham?

במקום שיש חילול השם אין חולקים כבוד לרב, means to ban his gittin, it doesn't mean to call him names.

Offline skyguy918

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Mar 2011
  • Posts: 4077
  • Total likes: 835
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Queens, NY
Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #716 on: December 08, 2015, 10:09:59 AM »
funny how some of these so called chasidishe "rabonim" were matir chilul shabbos in Brooklyn with their  so called eruv. I assume you protest that chilul hashem just as vehemently.
Not helping

Offline SayWhat

  • Dansdeals Silver Elite
  • **
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 56
  • Total likes: 72
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: USA
Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #717 on: December 08, 2015, 10:11:26 AM »
You are making a yet unproven assumption that he has no personality disorder. I understand that there are questions about the diagnosis but do not see any reason yet to call it a straight out lie.
Assume you are correct that he has a personality disorder - is that the threshold that Rav Moshe set? Have you lost your mind?


Offline dealfinder85

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Feb 2013
  • Posts: 3580
  • Total likes: 9
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
    • View Profile
Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #718 on: December 08, 2015, 10:12:10 AM »
perhaps its time to close up this thread
i dont think a single productive thing comes out of it
i think many unproductive and damaging things come out of it

Offline SayWhat

  • Dansdeals Silver Elite
  • **
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 56
  • Total likes: 72
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: USA
Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #719 on: December 08, 2015, 10:12:57 AM »
I have still not yet seen anyone having given a final shtemple on any heter.
Shtemple???
She's remarried!!