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הוי זהיר בגחלתם שלא תכוה, שנשיכתן נשיכת שועל ועקיצתן עקיצת עקרב, ולחישתן לחישת שרף, וכל דבריהם כגחלי אש

« Last edited by Baruch on March 30, 2016, 01:00:08 PM »

Author Topic: The Tamar Epstein Saga  (Read 276366 times)

Offline Aaaron

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #760 on: December 08, 2015, 03:28:59 PM »
My feelings are towards those that despise halacha and mesorah and wish it all wasn't so "rigid and inconsiderate"

My Rebbe, a very well-respected talmid chuchum from a yeshivish yeshiva, recently asked my advice on how to avoid leaving pi shnaim to his son upon the advice of his rebbe to do so.  How dare we mess with halacha and mesorah?!  You just won't acknowledge that everyone picks and chooses where they're willing to find a way -again - within the framework of existing halachic authority.

ETA:  The funny part is that his Rebbe is one of the published anti-heter gedolim mentioned frequently in this thread.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2015, 03:33:12 PM by Aaaron »

Offline Baruch

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #761 on: December 08, 2015, 03:40:52 PM »
My Rebbe, a very well-respected talmid chuchum from a yeshivish yeshiva, recently asked my advice on how to avoid leaving pi shnaim to his son upon the advice of his rebbe to do so.  How dare we mess with halacha and mesorah?!  You just won't acknowledge that everyone picks and chooses where they're willing to find a way -again - within the framework of existing halachic authority.

ETA:  The funny part is that his Rebbe is one of the published anti-heter gedolim mentioned frequently in this thread.
Ask your Rebbe if he agrees with your views on Halacha

Offline Aaaron

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #762 on: December 08, 2015, 03:42:37 PM »
Ask your Rebbe if he agrees with your views on Halacha

Based on your prior post, I don't think you understand my view on halacha.  It may have been a reading comprehension issue.

Offline SayWhat

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #763 on: December 08, 2015, 03:45:10 PM »
My Rebbe, a very well-respected talmid chuchum from a yeshivish yeshiva, recently asked my advice on how to avoid leaving pi shnaim to his son upon the advice of his rebbe to do so.  How dare we mess with halacha and mesorah?!  You just won't acknowledge that everyone picks and chooses where they're willing to find a way -again - within the framework of existing halachic authority.

ETA:  The funny part is that his Rebbe is one of the published anti-heter gedolim mentioned frequently in this thread.
The issue with the heter is not if we would apply Rav Moshes sevra to a case of PD - but rather how the determination was made that AF has this supposed disorder as well as the lack of transparency in this whole process.

Offline Aaaron

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #764 on: December 08, 2015, 03:47:02 PM »
The issue with the heter is not if we would apply Rav Moshes sevra to a case of PD - but rather how the determination was made that AF has this supposed disorder as well as the lack of transparency in this whole process.

Wow, I actually agree with you!  Those are very fair points. 

Offline SayWhat

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #765 on: December 08, 2015, 03:55:45 PM »
Wow, I actually agree with you!  Those are very fair points.
Just to rephrase that - whether Rav Moshes sevra would apply to PD is besides the point because of the issues I raised.

I would highly doubt any of the Poskim who came out with letters would agree that it does - but that is a technical argument. The issue here is Rabinic malpractice. There are no two sides to that

Offline yakrot

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #766 on: December 08, 2015, 04:53:18 PM »
Two thing I seem to missing are as follows ( I would appreciate it if someone could respectfully fill me in)

1) is it a fact that rav ng did in fact be mesader ?

2) and if he was mesader and realized afterwards that the entire kiddushin was forced upon him with seemingly intentional trickery, why does he have to go farther than to say that there is no hetter for them to be married.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #767 on: December 08, 2015, 04:54:30 PM »
Two thing I seem to missing are as follows ( I would appreciate it if someone could respectfully fill me in)

1) is it a fact that rav ng did in fact be mesader ?

2) and if he was mesader and realized afterwards that the entire kiddushin was forced upon him with seemingly intentional trickery, why does he have to go farther than to say that there is no hetter for them to be married.
1) yes
2) he has not done that

Offline Baruch

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #768 on: December 08, 2015, 09:50:08 PM »
Based on your prior post, I don't think you understand my view on halacha.  It may have been a reading comprehension issue.
3 people understood you, the way I understood you, (and still believe that's what you meant), and I have a reading comprehension issue.

Offline Aaaron

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #769 on: December 08, 2015, 09:58:36 PM »
3 people understood you, the way I understood you, (and still believe that's what you meant), and I have a reading comprehension issue.

Now you've lost me, but I'll play anyway.  What do you understand my position on halacha to be? 

Offline yuneeq

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #770 on: December 08, 2015, 11:13:45 PM »
Now you've lost me, but I'll play anyway.  What do you understand my position on halacha to be?

That if you just concentrate hard enough you can mattir just about anything.
Visibly Jewish

Online avromie7

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #771 on: December 08, 2015, 11:27:07 PM »
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/10/kiddushei-taus-annulment-rav-moshe.html

Quote
Rav Moshe suggested applying this ruling in five actual cases. They involved an impotent man (Teshuvot Igrot Moshe, E.H. 1:79), a man who concealed that he had been institutionalized prior to the marriage (E.H. 1:80), a man who concealed that he vehemently opposed having children and later forced his wife to abort a fetus (E.H. 4:13),9 a man who concealed that he was a practicing homosexual prior to the marriage (E.H. 4:113), and a man who concealed that he converted to another religion (E.H. 4:83).

This case is not even remotely similar to any of the above mentioned cases. If this case were to be considered similar enough to any of the above mentioned cases, R' Moshe would have used this heter hundreds of times.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline Baruch

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #772 on: December 08, 2015, 11:29:56 PM »
That if you just concentrate hard enough you can mattir just about anything.
you're the 4th person to have reading comprehension problems.

Online avromie7

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #773 on: December 08, 2015, 11:32:35 PM »
you're the 4th person to have reading comprehension problems.
I guess you can count me in as fifth
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline Baruch

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #774 on: December 08, 2015, 11:37:43 PM »
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/10/kiddushei-taus-annulment-rav-moshe.html

This case is not even remotely similar to any of the above mentioned cases. If this case were to be considered similar enough to any of the above mentioned cases, R' Moshe would have used this heter hundreds of times.
I will play devil's advocate:
According to Rav Shalom, the husband threatened a previous fiancee with his fist. If the once practicing homosexual, had relations like a normal man with his wife, that's not so far off from threatening a fiancee with a fist.

A 65 year old Talmid Chacham muflag, asked me recently to give him a quick outline of the story - when I got up to the fist story, he said - "Wow - taka a meshugena!".


Offline Baruch

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #775 on: December 08, 2015, 11:38:00 PM »
I guess you can count me in as fifth
lol. 5 for 5.

Offline henche

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #776 on: December 08, 2015, 11:41:00 PM »
I will play devil's advocate:
According to Rav Shalom, the husband threatened a previous fiancee with his fist. If the once practicing homosexual, had relations like a normal man with his wife, that's not so far off from threatening a fiancee with a fist.

A 65 year old Talmid Chacham muflag, asked me recently to give him a quick outline of the story - when I got up to the fist story, he said - "Wow - taka a meshugena!".

lolol are you kidding me?

Anyone who threatens someone else with a fist--they're wife can walk without a get at any time they want? 

I assume your 65 year old talmid chacham muflag was being sarcastic?

Offline Baruch

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #777 on: December 08, 2015, 11:43:01 PM »
lolol are you kidding me?

Anyone who threatens someone else with a fist--they're wife can walk without a get at any time they want? 

I assume your 65 year old talmid chacham muflag was being sarcastic?
You don't think someone who threatens his fiancee with his fist is a meshugena?

Now for that to be kedushei ta'us is another story.

My point was, that if Rav Moshe's homosexual, had taavas nashim for his wife, (I didn't see the teshuva, and it may be that he didn't, which would be a simple mekach ta'us), then unfortunately a homosexual is not that crazy....
« Last Edit: December 08, 2015, 11:46:43 PM by Baruch »

Online avromie7

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #778 on: December 08, 2015, 11:43:57 PM »
I will play devil's advocate:
According to Rav Shalom, the husband threatened a previous fiancee with his fist. If the once practicing homosexual, had relations like a normal man with his wife, that's not so far off from threatening a fiancee with a fist.

A 65 year old Talmid Chacham muflag, asked me recently to give him a quick outline of the story - when I got up to the fist story, he said - "Wow - taka a meshugena!".
I don't even know where to begin with that "comparison", according to that R' Moshe would have used this heter thousands of times.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline henche

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #779 on: December 08, 2015, 11:44:30 PM »
You don't think someone who threatens his fiancee with his fist is a meshugena?

No.