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הוי זהיר בגחלתם שלא תכוה, שנשיכתן נשיכת שועל ועקיצתן עקיצת עקרב, ולחישתן לחישת שרף, וכל דבריהם כגחלי אש

« Last edited by Baruch on March 30, 2016, 01:00:08 PM »

Author Topic: The Tamar Epstein Saga  (Read 309993 times)

Online Ergel

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1100 on: December 30, 2015, 02:24:37 PM »
FIne. That was I wrote "I think"-I did not get a chance to look it up. Either way, as I wrote above, there is no reason at all to EVEN THINK that it would be a group 3.
Indeed. The Din that a ba'al writes a get is more than a peirush mekubal, it's an ofener passuk.
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1101 on: December 30, 2015, 02:40:35 PM »
Not really following. Is this discussion about having the woman give the get to the man?

Is it Purim already??

Online Ergel

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1102 on: December 30, 2015, 02:52:41 PM »
Not really following.
Maybe you should be, maybe you will be enlightened. (FYI, please ask your Rav, I doubt he will tell you that Rambam hakdamah to peirush hamishnayos is non-standard thought. I would really appreciate if you would ask your Rav and report back).
Quote
Is this discussion about having the woman give the get to the man?

Is it Purim already??
Ignore that part of the discussion.
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1103 on: December 30, 2015, 03:57:31 PM »
Maybe you should be, maybe you will be enlightened. (FYI, please ask your Rav, I doubt he will tell you that Rambam hakdamah to peirush hamishnayos is non-standard thought. I would really appreciate if you would ask your Rav and report back).Ignore that part of the discussion.

I don't believe I posted anything about the rambam either way. I'm sure my rabbonim are absolutely fine with the Rambam in peirush. (Though we don't normally learn the moreh nevuchim -not necessarily because "its non standard", just too complex.)


I'm not following a discussion that is even partially heretical/Looney.

Online Ergel

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1104 on: December 30, 2015, 04:05:19 PM »
I don't believe I posted anything about the rambam either way. I'm sure my rabbonim are absolutely fine with the Rambam in peirush. (Though we don't normally learn the moreh nevuchim -not necessarily because "its non standard", just too complex.)
Sorry, it wasn't you. My bad
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline shiframeir

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1105 on: December 30, 2015, 04:33:30 PM »
Indeed. The Din that a ba'al writes a get is more than a peirush mekubal, it's an ofener passuk.
dont know what "ofener" means, but the simple read is not at all clear, as i have noted earlier. All the torah says (and indeed a simple read could be,and perhaps the mesorah read of the simple text ) is that if u hate your wife, u have a mitzvah to write out a bill of divorce stating the separation details (u get back this, i give u this etc.), and send her away. Indeed, the offhand reference to this mitzvah in the middle of psukim clearly focused on the issur (and toevah) of getting back together with a women who swapped for another man (note all the descriptive "ve"s in the pasuk, http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0524.htm, if vekasav lah is a necessary component for a good get (as opposed to a component for this toevah of remarriage), is it also necessary for a get that the women actually marries another man?) points to there not being an absolute Torah-pshat-level requirement that a woman cannot go marry someone else if the guy throws her out/they agree their marriage is over.

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1106 on: December 30, 2015, 07:21:58 PM »
dont know what "ofener" means, but the simple read is not at all clear, as i have noted earlier. All the torah says (and indeed a simple read could be,and perhaps the mesorah read of the simple text ) is that if u hate your wife, u have a mitzvah to write out a bill of divorce stating the separation details (u get back this, i give u this etc.), and send her away. Indeed, the offhand reference to this mitzvah in the middle of psukim clearly focused on the issur (and toevah) of getting back together with a women who swapped for another man (note all the descriptive "ve"s in the pasuk, http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0524.htm, if vekasav lah is a necessary component for a good get (as opposed to a component for this toevah of remarriage), is it also necessary for a get that the women actually marries another man?) points to there not being an absolute Torah-pshat-level requirement that a woman cannot go marry someone else if the guy throws her out/they agree their marriage is over.
You are seeing what you want to see. As I wrote earlier:

The first thing I take issue with is this.
You are taking very long leaps and calculating 1+1=9999999999999999999...  The Rambam clearly writes that the main difference is that machlokes is almost always in the fine points and not the basics, There is no machlokes as to what the 4 minim are even though there are in some aspects of their kashrus. To take a machlokes about an aspect of lishma and conjecture from there that the entire process of a get being given by the husband is not misinai is ridiculous. His need to give it is not the same din as it needing to be written lishma. I don't even think that this that it is given by the husband to the wife is a drasha but is the simple reading of the pasuk. Even CM understood that as the simple meaning of the pasuk based on the Chabad translation.

Even if we will accept it as a possibility before there is any minute possibility of anyone "changing" it you would need to not only show that it is possible but prove with certainty that it is the case. Your perception of injustice is not convincing in the slightest and frankly is to me the most disturbing part of your post. To say that something cannot be from Sinai because of a perceived injustice and that therefore we have the right to change it would make the entire torah into silly putty. To take what is at most a possibility-in your own words "I am no carrier of mesorah so I can't know for sure" and then take it to sayis simply disingenuous.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline lunatic

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1107 on: December 30, 2015, 07:41:20 PM »




I'm not following a discussion that is even partially heretical/Looney.
Then this thread is the first thing you want to stay away from

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1108 on: December 30, 2015, 07:45:29 PM »
Then this thread is the first thing you want to stay away from
I know. I have to ignore my own thread.

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1109 on: December 30, 2015, 08:08:53 PM »
You are seeing what you want to see. As I wrote earlier:
of course i am, and just as you see it your way. but if the Torah/God wanted the rules of marriage and divorce to not be in the hands of the rabbanan (including Afkinu), it would have been an easy pasuk or two, instead of strange inuendo out of context. I think there was great wisdom in leaving it to the greats of each generation to adjust as necessary. Unfortunately, i assume most of the greats dont agree with me, but that's how i see it.

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1110 on: December 30, 2015, 08:32:26 PM »
of course i am, and just as you see it your way. but if the Torah/God wanted the rules of marriage and divorce to not be in the hands of the rabbanan (including Afkinu), it would have been an easy pasuk or two, instead of strange inuendo out of context. I think there was great wisdom in leaving it to the greats of each generation to adjust as necessary. Unfortunately, i assume most of the greats dont agree with me, but that's how i see it.
Even you never wrote more than it being a slight possibility
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1111 on: December 31, 2015, 12:56:19 AM »
Even you never wrote more than it being a slight possibility
i never said slight.

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1112 on: December 31, 2015, 05:15:11 PM »
Back on topic.

The kuntris magazine has an article called kiddushei taus in halacha. I'm not going to post the whole thing, its basically a summary of the mekoros for the shayla in shas and poskim. The last paragraph is important.

]

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1113 on: January 03, 2016, 05:46:07 PM »


Lock thread?

Offline Aaaron

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1114 on: January 03, 2016, 05:52:28 PM »

Lock thread?

Heard that was coming from some members of the Baltimore B'D  ;)

I also heard that the ones that matter have been discussing this among themselves diligently for a while now.

Offline Boruch999

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1115 on: January 03, 2016, 05:56:07 PM »

Offline lunatic

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1116 on: January 03, 2016, 06:42:45 PM »


Lock thread?
Have you verified that this is legit

Offline SayWhat

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1117 on: January 03, 2016, 06:46:38 PM »
It's a sad excuse for a joke

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1118 on: January 03, 2016, 06:46:43 PM »
Have you verified that this is legit
No.

Reportedly other letters are coming out to be mocheh the bizayon directed at R Shmuel.

Offline lunatic

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1119 on: January 03, 2016, 06:50:04 PM »
No.

Reportedly other letters are coming out to be mocheh the bizayon directed at R Shmuel.
I wonder if it's fake