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הוי זהיר בגחלתם שלא תכוה, שנשיכתן נשיכת שועל ועקיצתן עקיצת עקרב, ולחישתן לחישת שרף, וכל דבריהם כגחלי אש

« Last edited by Baruch on March 30, 2016, 01:00:08 PM »

Author Topic: The Tamar Epstein Saga  (Read 291854 times)

Offline SayWhat

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1340 on: January 21, 2016, 11:44:53 AM »
LOLAnd you know this because?
Because every Posek who has written on this says so and the authors of the heter have not come out with one ioda of evidence to back up anyhing that they have done besides for R Greenblatts letter that says that he solely relied on R Shalom

Offline SayWhat

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1341 on: January 21, 2016, 11:49:07 AM »
Oh, no?

Yeah, you didn't say the words "R Greenblatt knowingly relied on the false report" but that's proof of nothing. Your direct implication was inescapable.
And just to be 100% clear I do not believe that R Greenblatt knew at the time he signed the heter that there was an issue with the facts that were presented to him. As he stated in his letter he relied solely  on R Shalom for the facts.

Offline AJK

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1342 on: January 21, 2016, 11:49:42 AM »
First of all you had quotes from other posters, I don't take responsibility for what others post.

What in the world? That just might be the most ridiculous thing I've heard.

So if I said "he ran the red light by accident" and you say "how is snorting cocaine, drinking a dozen beers, and driving blindfolded through a red light an accident?" you should not be held responsible for the very real and direct conclusion that you believe without a doubt the driver was completely at fault? Why, because you responded to what I said and implied your conclusion rather than directly stating it?

What a crock.
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Offline AJK

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1343 on: January 21, 2016, 11:53:58 AM »
R Shalom knowingly peddled the heter based on false information

Ah, the classic backtrack. Was waiting for this.

Allow me, if you will, to point out that propagating a heter based on information that purportedly turns out be based on false information is completely different from "peddling" a heter which one knows is a bogus from the outset.
2015: 116K bkd | 1.6M brnd | F: OZ,NH,AA,EK | J: UA,CA,TK,DL,TN,AF,VA | LIH,NRT,ROR,PEK,CNS,BOB,MEL,TLV & Pacific Hopper

Offline SayWhat

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1344 on: January 21, 2016, 12:04:14 PM »
Ah, the classic backtrack. Was waiting for this.

Allow me, if you will, to point out that propagating a heter based on information that purportedly turns out be based on false information is completely different from "peddling" a heter which one knows is a bogus from the outset.
No backtracking - R Shalom knew the heter was based on false information

Offline Ergel

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1345 on: January 21, 2016, 12:34:36 PM »
No backtracking - R Shalom knew the heter was based on false information
LOL
Amazing what bias will do to the mind
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline SayWhat

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1346 on: January 21, 2016, 12:40:08 PM »
LOL
Amazing what bias will do to the mind
Let's hear your theory as to how this heter which every Posek has come out against got off the ground originally?

Offline yesitsme83

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1347 on: January 21, 2016, 01:11:54 PM »
LOL
Amazing what bias will do to the mind
Actually anybody with a half a brain and a bit of intellectual honesty knows that's exactly what happened. Whether it was for money, loyalty to her Philly family (who had ties to the yeshiva) or something in between, he duped R' Nota into doing this.
It's the big elephant in the room that people are afraid to touch-a "Rosh Yeshiva" intentionally distorted and lied to get his way (surprise surprise). His fathers involvement isn't 100% clear though it ain't looking too good.

@saywhat I don't know why you insist on arguing with stupid people who actually believe that their influence and that of "the bloggers" is so great that they're the ones who kicked up the dust here. Guys, what are you smoking? Do you realize the world extends beyond your keyboards. Nobody cares less what AJK or any other blogger for that matter has to say.

I'd venture a guess that some of the defenders here are talmidim of the Yeshiva or have some ties to it. The Philly guys have been taking this very hard as their Gods have done wrong.

The bending over backwards here to justify something clearly wrong is pathetic. These people (no, they're not "Gedolim"-"Gedolim" don't do this stuff) lied, distorted, and even worse, acted stupidly to get their way (they really thought nobody would catch onto them? IQ levels must be pretty low around there).

As for R' Nota, he paskened based on the info he was given (as he said in his letter). He was provided with false information by the culprits here. So though not completely blameless (a bit more due diligence doesn't hurt), we can forgive a mistake of someone of his age.

Offline AJK

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1348 on: January 21, 2016, 01:16:34 PM »
As for R' Nota, he paskened based on the info he was given (as he said in his letter). He was provided with false information by the culprits here. So though not completely blameless (a bit more due diligence doesn't hurt), we can forgive a mistake of someone of his age.

Well, now that R' Nota has your forgiveness, maybe Hashem will re-welcome R' Nota, shlita, back into Gan Eden after 120  ::)
2015: 116K bkd | 1.6M brnd | F: OZ,NH,AA,EK | J: UA,CA,TK,DL,TN,AF,VA | LIH,NRT,ROR,PEK,CNS,BOB,MEL,TLV & Pacific Hopper

Offline Yankee123

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1349 on: January 21, 2016, 01:38:08 PM »
I have some shaychus to the Philly community, and I am aware what is going on within the community. I just recently came across this thread and I'm so curious whats going on. I cannot read thru 90 pages, time doesn't permit it.
Can someone quickly fill me in what is taking up 90 pages (and counting)?   


Offline yuneeq

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1350 on: January 21, 2016, 03:53:38 PM »
I have some shaychus to the Philly community, and I am aware what is going on within the community. I just recently came across this thread and I'm so curious whats going on. I cannot read thru 90 pages, time doesn't permit it.
Can someone quickly fill me in what is taking up 90 pages (and counting)?   

A married woman (TE) gets remarried without a get between her 1st and 2nd marriages.
TE got remarried on the basis of a bogus psychologist report claiming that the 1st husband (AF) is and always was mentally ill.

A rabbi shopped around this report to RNG and got a him to issue a mekach ta'us heter (which is a controversial heter even if the husband was certifiably insane).

Then many gedolim and rabbonim protested the flawed halachik process that led to the (already controversial) heter, and RNG retracted the heter though TE is still living with her 2nd husband.
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Offline Ergel

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1351 on: January 21, 2016, 04:06:18 PM »
LOL
Amazing what bias will do to the mind
Let's hear your theory as to how this heter which every Posek has come out against got off the ground originally?
Actually anybody with a half a brain and a bit of intellectual honesty knows that's exactly what happened. Whether it was for money, loyalty to her Philly family (who had ties to the yeshiva) or something in between, he duped R' Nota into doing this.
It's the big elephant in the room that people are afraid to touch-a "Rosh Yeshiva" intentionally distorted and lied to get his way (surprise surprise). His fathers involvement isn't 100% clear though it ain't looking too good.

@saywhat I don't know why you insist on arguing with stupid people who actually believe that their influence and that of "the bloggers" is so great that they're the ones who kicked up the dust here. Guys, what are you smoking? Do you realize the world extends beyond your keyboards. Nobody cares less what AJK or any other blogger for that matter has to say.

I'd venture a guess that some of the defenders here are talmidim of the Yeshiva or have some ties to it. The Philly guys have been taking this very hard as their Gods have done wrong.

The bending over backwards here to justify something clearly wrong is pathetic. These people (no, they're not "Gedolim"-"Gedolim" don't do this stuff) lied, distorted, and even worse, acted stupidly to get their way (they really thought nobody would catch onto them? IQ levels must be pretty low around there).

As for R' Nota, he paskened based on the info he was given (as he said in his letter). He was provided with false information by the culprits here. So though not completely blameless (a bit more due diligence doesn't hurt), we can forgive a mistake of someone of his age.

Wasn't referring to the comment about R' Shalom. Just the comment that he said no backtracking while he was in the process of backtracking on his comments about R' Nota.

BTW, I'm not a talmid of Philly
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline SayWhat

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1352 on: January 21, 2016, 04:33:59 PM »
Wasn't referring to the comment about R' Shalom. Just the comment that he said no backtracking while he was in the process of backtracking on his comments about R' Nota.

BTW, I'm not a talmid of Philly
For the third time - the comments I made about knowingly relying on false information was not directed towards R Greenblatt. Apparently I posted those comments as a reply to a comment where someone had referenced R Greenblatt. There is a difference between backtracking and admitting my comments were directed at the wrong individual.

Offline AJK

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1353 on: January 21, 2016, 05:44:02 PM »
Operative words: "admitting my comments. . . were wrong."
2015: 116K bkd | 1.6M brnd | F: OZ,NH,AA,EK | J: UA,CA,TK,DL,TN,AF,VA | LIH,NRT,ROR,PEK,CNS,BOB,MEL,TLV & Pacific Hopper

Offline yuneeq

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1354 on: January 21, 2016, 06:46:18 PM »
Operative words: "admitting my comments. . . were wrong."

It must be fun to continue beating a dead horse.
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Offline AJK

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1355 on: January 21, 2016, 06:49:51 PM »
Horse wasn't dead yet.

We know, we know, the lines are drawn, and you're on the "side of Torah." <golf clap>
2015: 116K bkd | 1.6M brnd | F: OZ,NH,AA,EK | J: UA,CA,TK,DL,TN,AF,VA | LIH,NRT,ROR,PEK,CNS,BOB,MEL,TLV & Pacific Hopper

Offline SayWhat

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1356 on: January 21, 2016, 07:02:11 PM »
Operative words: "admitting my comments. . . were wrong."
Yesitsme83 was correct about who I'm dealing with

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1357 on: January 21, 2016, 08:34:49 PM »

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1358 on: January 21, 2016, 08:35:22 PM »

Offline SayWhat

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1359 on: January 21, 2016, 08:37:04 PM »
Horse wasn't dead yet.

We know, we know, the lines are drawn, and you're on the "side of Torah." <golf clap>
Seems like I'm on the correct side - and seems like your on the horses @ss side.

« Last Edit: January 21, 2016, 08:41:09 PM by SayWhat »