Author Topic: Kids are expensive!!  (Read 16613 times)

Offline AsherO

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 30K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 31016
  • Total likes: 7975
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 79
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: Kids are expensive!!
« Reply #40 on: March 03, 2011, 06:40:50 PM »
when i was in lisbon portugal i was surprised there was no chabad. there must be other places as well

There is now.

http://www.chabad.org/centers/default_cdo/aid/1332828/jewish/Chabad-Lubavitch-of-Portugal.htm
DDF FFB (Forum From Birth)

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 68932
  • Total likes: 17317
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Kids are expensive!!
« Reply #41 on: March 03, 2011, 06:41:31 PM »
when i was in lisbon portugal i was surprised there was no chabad. there must be other places as well
There actually is Chabad in Lisbon now.  A yeshiva-mate of mine (Eli Rosenfeld) went there recently.

And just because there is no Chabad somewhere doesn't mean you can just pick up and go there.  There was no Chabad on the Big Island of Hawaii for many years because it was being held for one of the kids of the Head Shliach of Hawaii.  Nothing against him personally, that kind of nepotism is commonplace worldwide in Chabad circles.  It's the reason why in NE Ohio you need to marry into one of the ruling families to set up shop here, even if others that have tried to get a spot here are more qualified.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline AsherO

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 30K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 31016
  • Total likes: 7975
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 79
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: Kids are expensive!!
« Reply #42 on: March 03, 2011, 06:42:17 PM »
There actually is Chabad in Lisbon now.  A yeshiva-mate of mine (Eli Rosenfeld) went there recently.

Jinx, we said the same thing at the exact same time :D
DDF FFB (Forum From Birth)

Offline Avid Reader

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 4023
  • Total likes: 13
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
  • Programs: Starwood Gold, Accor Gold, Hilton Gold, Hertz Five Star Gold, Marriott Silver, National Executive
Re: Kids are expensive!!
« Reply #43 on: March 03, 2011, 06:49:30 PM »
Jinx, we said the same thing at the exact same time :D

Triple jinx?

Offline moish

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 10035
  • Total likes: 297
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Programs: AA LT Plat, Avis, SPG Plat
Re: Kids are expensive!!
« Reply #44 on: March 03, 2011, 08:03:40 PM »
There actually is Chabad in Lisbon now.  A yeshiva-mate of mine (Eli Rosenfeld) went there recently.

And just because there is no Chabad somewhere doesn't mean you can just pick up and go there.  There was no Chabad on the Big Island of Hawaii for many years because it was being held for one of the kids of the Head Shliach of Hawaii.  Nothing against him personally, that kind of nepotism is commonplace worldwide in Chabad circles.  It's the reason why in NE Ohio you need to marry into one of the ruling families to set up shop here, even if others that have tried to get a spot here are more qualified.

was this the practice as well when the rebbe was alive?
« Last Edit: March 03, 2011, 08:27:49 PM by moish »

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 68932
  • Total likes: 17317
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Kids are expensive!!
« Reply #45 on: March 03, 2011, 09:03:27 PM »
was this the practice as well when the rebbe was alive?
<rant>
It wasn't as bad.  First of all there were many more open spots, so less competition.  Now in places like the LA valley there is a shliach literally every highway exit.  Mushrooms, some are called.
Second nobody would dare question the Rebbe if he sent someone somewhere.  Nowadays the head shliach in each place has much more unilateral power to make their own decisions.  If you want to go to a place now you will be going under the rules of the head shliach.  That can mean doing all dirty work at minimum wage, not being allowed to fundraise to actually pay the bills, and having zero job security, especially if people start to like you better than the head shliach.

Anyway I don't mean to air our bad laundry, I'll leave that to other websites that do a fine job at that.  My point is just that the Chabad Yeshiva system is set up to train everyone to become a shliach and doesn't equip them to do much else.  Countless nights of farbrengens and one-on-ones with mashpi'im in yeshiva make sure that bochurim are convinced that shlichus is the greatest thing that can be done and that that is the ultimate goal for every bochur in yeshiva.  If you don't complete the system (8-9 years from mesivta through smicha) or if you leave to go to college you're told you won't find a shidduch, etc.  Only a very small minority of Chabad high schools have secular studies, the rest of the guys don't even have a GED.  If they're lucky that get a meaningless BA-equaivlent or a BA that may get them into a graduate school but is basically worthless on its own.

Yet these yeshivas are expecting these same people that are idling away looking for a shlichus job or being underemployed to somehow come up with tens of thousands of post-tax dollar to pay tuition? Full tuition is now $18,000-$22,000 at a Chabad Zal like OT, Motown, LA, etc!  The minimum for an out-of-towner is what? $12,000? For what?  For a shuir twice a week that wasn't even prepped for?  Why should learning b'chavrusa cost such outrageous sums?  Besides that the amount of time wasted over the 8-9 years is astounding and many guys that have been through the system get burned out from the entire experience...

I see it as a problem, I'm not sure how the yeshivas don't.  It's all good and fine that many Chabad BT's are well-paid professionals and can afford to pay these bills, but I don't see how it can be sustainable for the next generation.  The yeshivas that told these bochurim that they can't dare follow in their father's college footsteps are going to find out a sorry truth when nobody can afford the money they are asking anymore.

</rant>
« Last Edit: March 03, 2011, 09:10:38 PM by Dan »
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Cholentfresser

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2009
  • Posts: 1921
  • Total likes: 50
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Kids are expensive!!
« Reply #46 on: March 03, 2011, 09:35:05 PM »
wow Dan, you didn't mention how in addition to the very high prices, they also use up all the grants so even if someone wants to start college after the whole system, the grants are all used up...
In order to understand recursion, you first need to understand recursion.

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 68932
  • Total likes: 17317
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Kids are expensive!!
« Reply #47 on: March 03, 2011, 09:39:36 PM »
wow Dan, you didn't mention how in addition to the very high prices, they also use up all the grants so even if someone wants to start college after the whole system, the grants are all used up...
True, true.
I said far too much as it is.  I'm sure I've earned a few enemies by now :)
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Cholentfresser

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2009
  • Posts: 1921
  • Total likes: 50
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Kids are expensive!!
« Reply #48 on: March 03, 2011, 09:42:19 PM »
True, true.
I said far too much as it is.  I'm sure I've earned a few enemies by now :)
i guess for some the truth hurts, but you can't live in denial, it's all in front of everyone's eyes...
In order to understand recursion, you first need to understand recursion.

Offline Avid Reader

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 4023
  • Total likes: 13
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
  • Programs: Starwood Gold, Accor Gold, Hilton Gold, Hertz Five Star Gold, Marriott Silver, National Executive
Re: Kids are expensive!!
« Reply #49 on: March 04, 2011, 01:19:34 AM »
I may open a can of worms here...

I agree with much of Dan's sentiments here, especially about Yeshivos charging exorbitant fees, but as far as the alternative for giving Bochurim a proper education, I'm not convinced college is the answer.

1) There are many guys who sit through the college system wasting their time and parents money, bluffing their way through the system. 2) Even with the guys who are serious about their studies, many of them come out ill equipped to enter the job market, because what they really need is hands on training. 3) You have many guys with Masters and PhD's who still can't find jobs in spite of their degree. 4) According to some, most people are not cut-out for real college level education.

This is the way the best selling author, Prof. and Bradley Scholar Charles Murray puts it:

"Imagine that America had no system of post-secondary education, and you were a member of a task force assigned to create one from scratch. One of your colleagues submits this proposal:

First, we will set up a single goal to represent educational success, which will take four years to achieve no matter what is being taught. We will attach an economic reward to it that seldom has anything to do with what has been learned. We will urge large numbers of people who do not possess adequate ability to try to achieve the goal, wait until they have spent a lot of time and money, and then deny it to them. We will stigmatize everyone who doesn’t meet the goal. We will call the goal a “BA.”

You would conclude that your colleague was cruel, not to say insane. But that’s the system we have in place."


And his solution:

The solution is not better degrees, but no degrees. Young people entering the job market should have a known, trusted measure of their qualifications they can carry into job interviews. That measure should express what they know, not where they learned it or how long it took them. They need a certification, not a degree.

(This was part of an Op Ed in the Wall Street Journal titled For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time , available in full here)




« Last Edit: March 04, 2011, 01:23:27 AM by Avid Reader »

Offline SuperFlyer

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2009
  • Posts: 9407
  • Total likes: 439
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Kids are expensive!!
« Reply #50 on: March 04, 2011, 01:21:27 AM »
The yeshiva problem, ie, that some sit there for 10 years, and barely learn, otherwise they can forget about a shidduch, isn't unfortunately patented by chabad. Loads of yeshivas (using the worldwide, not-usa term) have the same problem.
I must admit that in the usa, loads of frum guys at least finnish high school, but in europe/israel its a big minority.

Times are changing slowly (in europe at least), and people slowly start accepting that a bochur of say, 23 will start working, as well as some taking courses via correspondence.
This is becoming more of a trend, as more and more bochrim are children of people that went through the aforementioned system.

Don't get me wrong, a very serious bochur that wants to make a career out of learning is very good. Burning 10 years with little fruits... 

Offline Avid Reader

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 4023
  • Total likes: 13
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
  • Programs: Starwood Gold, Accor Gold, Hilton Gold, Hertz Five Star Gold, Marriott Silver, National Executive
Re: Kids are expensive!!
« Reply #51 on: March 04, 2011, 01:28:15 AM »
On the lighter side, there is speculation that pretty soon 'Cherem Derabienu Gershom' will be revoked for the simple reason that it takes more then one wife to support a Yungerman in kollel.

Offline Chaikel

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: Jun 2008
  • Posts: 6842
  • Total likes: 174
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 20
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Programs: LH SEN, SPG Plat, Hyatt Plat, Rav Kav Platinum
Re: Kids are expensive!!
« Reply #52 on: March 04, 2011, 01:42:28 AM »
Dan, the way you describe it, it sounds like the bottom of a pyramid scheme
Create professional looking itineraries.
Check out eliteitinerary.com

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 68932
  • Total likes: 17317
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Kids are expensive!!
« Reply #53 on: March 04, 2011, 08:33:38 AM »
On the lighter side, there is speculation that pretty soon 'Cherem Derabienu Gershom' will be revoked for the simple reason that it takes more then one wife to support a Yungerman in kollel.
:D

To clarify my sentiments.  I'm not saying college is the solution.  Frankly I don't know what the solution is.
However, sending 18 year old bochurim away to coed colleges/dorms will obviously end in disaster.
But throwing away $100,000+ post-tax dollars (figure $150,000+ earned income) on each kid to go through the current system for nearly a decade and have little to show for it is nearly as disastrous.

Somebody needs to come up with a solution. It will be controversial, but something needs to be done IMO.

As far the degree, what you're attacking is the worldwide system of the degree.  But unfortunately these days you need it just to get your foot in the door at a good paying job.  Hands on training is fine if you want to do a craft, but other than that you can't necessarily train for something like that without a degree.  True, a degree offers no guarantees, but your job options with a degree are much broader than without one. 

The yeshiva problem, ie, that some sit there for 10 years, and barely learn, otherwise they can forget about a shidduch, isn't unfortunately patented by chabad. Loads of yeshivas (using the worldwide, not-usa term) have the same problem.
I must admit that in the usa, loads of frum guys at least finnish high school, but in europe/israel its a big minority.

Times are changing slowly (in europe at least), and people slowly start accepting that a bochur of say, 23 will start working, as well as some taking courses via correspondence.
This is becoming more of a trend, as more and more bochrim are children of people that went through the aforementioned system.

Don't get me wrong, a very serious bochur that wants to make a career out of learning is very good. Burning 10 years with little fruits... 
In Chabad (AFAIK?) there are just 2 high schools that actually have a quarter-decent secular education (Pittsburgh and LA)  The rest of the schools really don't prep these guys for any kind of real world education if they decide that shlichus isn't for them.
There's a strong stigma against secular education...

Correspondence courses aren't bad, but it takes real dedication to be able to actually learn anything in one.
The irony is that when it really comes time to find a shidduch the in-laws want to either see that you're really dedicated to finding shlichus (nearly impossible now unless you're extremely well connected or marry into the right family) or that you can make a livable income.  The ones in between though, struggle.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline moish

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 10035
  • Total likes: 297
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Programs: AA LT Plat, Avis, SPG Plat
Re: Kids are expensive!!
« Reply #54 on: March 04, 2011, 09:15:37 AM »
There's a strong stigma against secular education...
im confused. didnt the rebbe himself attend university in berlin to become an engineer?

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 68932
  • Total likes: 17317
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Kids are expensive!!
« Reply #55 on: March 04, 2011, 09:20:56 AM »
im confused. didnt the rebbe himself attend university in berlin to become an engineer?
And he attended the Sorbonne.

The rest of us aren't trusted to be up to the nisayon, although the rebbe did tell my uncle to enroll in college and become a doctor.  Of course when I would bring that up to a yeshiva mashpiah I would just be told that was a a hoi'rah protis and not l'rabim...

As for why chabad schools (even high schools) can't offer a secular education without being relegated to 2nd class, I'm not sure.

I did attend a graduate level business program after yeshiva and had an MBA by the time I got married at 23.  I stayed at home and attended classes and really never understood what the nisayon is for that kind of program.  Of course the average age there is much higher than undergrad and I lived from home, but there are ways to mitigate nisyonos.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Avid Reader

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 4023
  • Total likes: 13
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
  • Programs: Starwood Gold, Accor Gold, Hilton Gold, Hertz Five Star Gold, Marriott Silver, National Executive
Re: Kids are expensive!!
« Reply #56 on: March 04, 2011, 10:29:39 AM »
im confused. didnt the rebbe himself attend university in berlin to become an engineer?

Without getting into why the rebbe attended University, as a general rule the rebbe strongly discouraged people from attending college. There were individual exceptions were the rebbe told specific people to go to college, and often when a someone was becoming a Baal Teshuva and asked the rebbe if they should continue their education in college, the rebbe would reply yes. But again as a general rule the rebbe was strongly against it.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2011, 10:45:25 AM by Avid Reader »

Offline Avid Reader

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 4023
  • Total likes: 13
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
  • Programs: Starwood Gold, Accor Gold, Hilton Gold, Hertz Five Star Gold, Marriott Silver, National Executive
Re: Kids are expensive!!
« Reply #57 on: March 04, 2011, 10:42:31 AM »
:D

To clarify my sentiments.  I'm not saying college is the solution.  Frankly I don't know what the solution is.
However, sending 18 year old bochurim away to coed colleges/dorms will obviously end in disaster.
But throwing away $100,000+ post-tax dollars (figure $150,000+ earned income) on each kid to go through the current system for nearly a decade and have little to show for it is nearly as disastrous.

Somebody needs to come up with a solution. It will be controversial, but something needs to be done IMO.

As far the degree, what you're attacking is the worldwide system of the degree.  But unfortunately these days you need it just to get your foot in the door at a good paying job.  Hands on training is fine if you want to do a craft, but other than that you can't necessarily train for something like that without a degree.  True, a degree offers no guarantees, but your job options with a degree are much broader than without one. 

Statistics show that people with a BA earn a nice amount more then those with just a high school diploma. The question is why. According to Murray, it's because the degree is a screening device to employers (with no cost to them) showing them that a prospective employee has the will power and is capable of learning new things. So student end up going shopping for this 'pass' paying tens of thousands and spending four years of their life to get it.

You can have a degree in education and be hired in the mechanical field even though there is no relation to your degree, because it shows you're able to learn the new companies systems.

Being that for many people this is what the degree accomplishes, I see nothing wrong with getting a degree online, the cheapest and fastest way possible.

Offline Avid Reader

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 4023
  • Total likes: 13
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
  • Programs: Starwood Gold, Accor Gold, Hilton Gold, Hertz Five Star Gold, Marriott Silver, National Executive
Re: Kids are expensive!!
« Reply #58 on: March 04, 2011, 10:49:05 AM »

In Chabad (AFAIK?) there are just 2 high schools that actually have a quarter-decent secular education (Pittsburgh and LA)  The rest of the schools really don't prep these guys for any kind of real world education if they decide that shlichus isn't for them.
There's a strong stigma against secular education...


Hamesivta on Ocean Pkwy which is part of ULY has part day secular ed. But yes, there is a stigma...


The irony is that when it really comes time to find a shidduch the in-laws want to either see that you're really dedicated to finding shlichus (nearly impossible now unless you're extremely well connected or marry into the right family) or that you can make a livable income.  The ones in between though, struggle.

I couldn't agree more. At the end of the day even the Chassideshe girls want to know if the guy knows how to make a dollar.

And I too feel we need a solution to this whole problem being discussed.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2011, 10:54:34 AM by Avid Reader »

Offline AsherO

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 30K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 31016
  • Total likes: 7975
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 79
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: Kids are expensive!!
« Reply #59 on: March 04, 2011, 12:47:19 PM »
And I too feel we need a solution to this whole problem being discussed.

Anyone want to propose/postulate a solution (at least a partial one that would address one/some of the the concerns raised above)?
DDF FFB (Forum From Birth)