Author Topic: The Future of Lakewood  (Read 412287 times)

Offline jye

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #2940 on: May 18, 2023, 02:01:06 PM »
This is why it is good we have a mesorah from R Aharon.

You do realize that What Rav Aron held was a reshus harabim gamur is certainly relevant today But the considerations that went into weighing the chashashos of 7th st for example vs michshol and saying we have a mesorah in Lakewood  2023 is not comparing apples to oranges, itís comparing apples to Moonrocks. Rav Aronís Lakewood had a few families on private way who were living the yeshiva. The chashashos, and the need for an eruv was minimal. Fast forward to the Lakewood of today with tens of thousands of residents who often live in proximity to siblings and parents, commonly walking 20 to 30 minutes for shabbos meals and going out in about for simchas and the like, and the need and opportunity for michshol is exponentially different.

Offline yelped

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #2941 on: May 18, 2023, 02:11:08 PM »
Most have nothing against a kosher eiruv.
That's what that Rav (who the Rosh put in Cherem) said. ;)
« Last Edit: May 18, 2023, 02:17:19 PM by yelped »

Offline Pony

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #2942 on: May 18, 2023, 03:29:06 PM »

You do realize that What Rav Aron held was a reshus harabim gamur is certainly relevant today But the considerations that went into weighing the chashashos of 7th st for example vs michshol and saying we have a mesorah in Lakewood  2023 is not comparing apples to oranges, itís comparing apples to Moonrocks. Rav Aronís Lakewood had a few families on private way who were living the yeshiva. The chashashos, and the need for an eruv was minimal. Fast forward to the Lakewood of today with tens of thousands of residents who often live in proximity to siblings and parents, commonly walking 20 to 30 minutes for shabbos meals and going out in about for simchas and the like, and the need and opportunity for michshol is exponentially different.

I was told by my rosh yeshiva (a talmid of Reb Ahron) that a ben Torah should not carry in a shtut eiruv. And he said this regarding Yerushulayim which has multiple ďgoodĒ eiruvem.

To be clear, he wasnít quoting Reb Ahron. But he is a talmud.

Offline aygart

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #2943 on: May 18, 2023, 03:30:46 PM »
I was told by my rosh yeshiva (a talmid of Reb Ahron) that a ben Torah should not carry in a shtut eiruv. And he said this regarding Yerushulayim which has multiple ďgoodĒ eiruvem.

To be clear, he wasnít quoting Reb Ahron. But he is a talmud.
My father was told similar by someone who asked R Moshe for him regarding Monsey which R Moshe himself checked.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline imayid2

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #2944 on: May 18, 2023, 03:31:35 PM »
I was told by my rosh yeshiva (a talmid of Reb Ahron) that a ben Torah should not carry in a shtut eiruv. And he said this regarding Yerushulayim which has multiple ďgoodĒ eiruvem.

To be clear, he wasnít quoting Reb Ahron. But he is a talmud.
But he didnít tell you to make a fuss if others do.

Offline Pony

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #2945 on: May 18, 2023, 03:33:55 PM »
But he didnít tell you to make a fuss if others do.

This is 100% correct

Offline username

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #2946 on: May 18, 2023, 03:56:35 PM »

You do realize that What Rav Aron held was a reshus harabim gamur is certainly relevant today But the considerations that went into weighing the chashashos of 7th st for example vs michshol and saying we have a mesorah in Lakewood  2023 is not comparing apples to oranges, itís comparing apples to Moonrocks. Rav Aronís Lakewood had a few families on private way who were living the yeshiva. ...

Which side of Route 9  the 'Old Shul' is on??

And many Yungeleit lived on Clifton.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2023, 04:19:45 PM by username »
^^^

Offline jye

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #2947 on: May 18, 2023, 04:26:47 PM »
Which side of Route 9  the 'Old Shul' is on??

And many Yungeleit lived on Clifton.
As far as I know the Lakewood that was part of the Old shul had no shaychus to the yeshiva. There would be no reason to have people from that area crossing route 9. Were yungerleit living above the stores on Clifton already during Rav Aron? Were there enough to bear any resemblance to the masses moving around town on shabbos today? Highly doubtful.

Offline jye

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #2948 on: May 18, 2023, 04:29:34 PM »
My father was told similar by someone who asked R Moshe for him regarding Monsey which R Moshe himself checked.
Is the discussion at hand about the propriety of using a shtut eruv in Lakewood or of putting one up to prevent michshol despite the inevitability that many who donít have the sensitivity will just follow the herd and carry? I thought it was the latter.

Offline aygart

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #2949 on: May 18, 2023, 05:18:50 PM »
Is the discussion at hand about the propriety of using a shtut eruv in Lakewood or of putting one up to prevent michshol despite the inevitability that many who donít have the sensitivity will just follow the herd and carry? I thought it was the latter.

All aspects were addressed in my post, but it was not about Lakewood and Rt. 9.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline aygart

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #2950 on: May 18, 2023, 05:20:13 PM »
As far as I know the Lakewood that was part of the Old shul had no shaychus to the yeshiva. There would be no reason to have people from that area crossing route 9. Were yungerleit living above the stores on Clifton already during Rav Aron? Were there enough to bear any resemblance to the masses moving around town on shabbos today? Highly doubtful.

There is no resemblance to today, but there were kosher hotels on Rt 9 with no eruv. One is where R Shneur's chasuna was.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline dm123

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #2951 on: May 18, 2023, 05:23:42 PM »
Is there a tshuva(s) or letters from R Aharon about it?

Offline aygart

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #2952 on: May 18, 2023, 05:46:24 PM »
yes in sefer.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline dm123

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #2953 on: May 18, 2023, 05:53:42 PM »
yes in sefer.

Thanks!
Anyone have a picture/link to hebrewbooks/etc?

ETA
@aygart you mean this?
 סימן ו
 קונטרס בעניני עירובי וגדרין רשות הרבים

https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1658&st=&pgnum=28
« Last Edit: May 18, 2023, 06:01:43 PM by dm123 »

Offline imayid2

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #2954 on: May 18, 2023, 07:39:13 PM »
Is there a tshuva(s) or letters from R Aharon about it?
I don't think he directly addresses practicalities of Lakewood anywhere. However his talmidim have apparently said that he took the position that ס רבוא isn't a factor in רשות הרבים. There are many eiruvin in town which would not be ok according to this.

Route 9 is an independent issue, as it is a serious ס רבוא concern. So even people who are more meikal in general would have a problem.

Offline jye

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #2955 on: May 18, 2023, 08:05:40 PM »
I don't think he directly addresses practicalities of Lakewood anywhere. However his talmidim have apparently said that he took the position that ס רבוא isn't a factor in רשות הרבים. There are many eiruvin in town which would not be ok according to this.

Route 9 is an independent issue, as it is a serious ס רבוא concern. So even people who are more meikal in general would have a problem.
How serious? If you go with Rav Mosheís diyuk of עיר שיש בה Lakewood certainly isnít ס רבוא. If you go by a point in the road, there is no point on route nine that is traversed by 600k any day of the year. You can take the whole route 9 from Delaware  to NY, or count traffic over a long period of time to get to 600k but it is not all all a given that route 9 is an issue of ס רבוא

Offline imayid2

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #2956 on: May 18, 2023, 08:11:39 PM »
How serious? If you go with Rav Mosheís diyuk of עיר שיש בה Lakewood certainly isnít ס רבוא. If you go by a point in the road, there is no point on route nine that is traversed by 600k any day of the year. You can take the whole route 9 from Delaware  to NY, or count traffic over a long period of time to get to 600k but it is not all all a given that route 9 is an issue of ס רבוא

Rav Shloma Miller:



Offline jye

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #2957 on: May 18, 2023, 08:16:55 PM »
Rav Shloma Miller:


Heís saying itís a tzad which it certainly is

Offline aygart

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #2958 on: May 18, 2023, 08:23:25 PM »
How serious? If you go with Rav Mosheís diyuk of עיר שיש בה Lakewood certainly isnít ס רבוא. If you go by a point in the road, there is no point on route nine that is traversed by 600k any day of the year. You can take the whole route 9 from Delaware  to NY, or count traffic over a long period of time to get to 600k but it is not all all a given that route 9 is an issue of ס רבוא
What is considered the עיר? Do you use the rules for tchumin?

I once calculated that for a line in a road 16 Amos wide to have 600000 going over it per day you need to have rows shoulder to shoulder going straight all day long walking pretty quickly.

Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline aygart

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #2959 on: May 18, 2023, 08:25:54 PM »
Rav Shloma Miller:


What makes Rt 9 one street? The federal funding?
Feelings don't care about your facts