Author Topic: The Future of Lakewood  (Read 539484 times)

Offline imayid2

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3400 on: July 21, 2023, 12:08:23 AM »
Wether or not you can wrap your head around chevrons specific grievances, I do wonder how many people not part of our community are looking at this story, seeing details how he’s a Rabbi wrote books and what not, noticing how it is shushed and swept under the rug, and decrying how our community covers all sorts of things over.

Not that I think it shouldn’t be that way in this case, just part of the חילול השם he caused.

Online chevron

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3401 on: July 21, 2023, 12:13:45 AM »
Wether or not you can wrap your head around chevrons specific grievances, I do wonder how many people not part of our community are looking at this story, seeing details how he’s a Rabbi wrote books and what not, noticing how it is shushed and swept under the rug, and decrying how our community covers all sorts of things over.

Not that I think it shouldn’t be that way in this case, just part of the חילול השם he caused.

I'm finished with this conversation but this is my sentiment.

And it's deplorable to simply shrug off and mock the women involved as "gold diggers "

Blame the women.. sure

Online YitzyS

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3402 on: July 21, 2023, 12:16:36 AM »
Wether or not you can wrap your head around chevrons specific grievances, I do wonder how many people not part of our community are looking at this story, seeing details how he’s a Rabbi wrote books and what not, noticing how it is shushed and swept under the rug, and decrying how our community covers all sorts of things over.

Not that I think it shouldn’t be that way in this case, just part of the חילול השם he caused.
How is the world is anyone covering for him? To not leave a trail of gossip is not equivalent to covering.

We all live lives, this guy's issues were not the in-your-face issues like defrauding hundreds in the community. It's an issue that has little to do with Lakewood at all.

Offline imayid2

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3403 on: July 21, 2023, 12:23:15 AM »
How is the world is anyone covering for him? To not leave a trail of gossip is not equivalent to covering.

We all live lives, this guy's issues were not the in-your-face issues like defrauding hundreds in the community. It's an issue that has little to do with Lakewood at all.
In any other community I assume it would make the local news.

Anyway, I hope you’re right and everyone realizes that.

Offline yawn

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3404 on: July 21, 2023, 12:24:37 AM »
How is the world is anyone covering for him? To not leave a trail of gossip is not equivalent to covering.

We all live lives, this guy's issues were not the in-your-face issues like defrauding hundreds in the community. It's an issue that has little to do with Lakewood at all.
And it's not as if this was a major news story outside of our community that we kept under wraps. It was covered by one semi-popular tabloid, no one else picked it up, and it was so obscure that it wasn't until 36 hours after it was published that someone here found it and mentioned it. There are a plethora of examples where you can malign the frum community and our media for covering up stories. Not this one. This story sells because it's fascinating, and scandalous. Not because it's a deep communitywide issue, or something were trying to prevent in the future.

Offline Euclid

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3405 on: July 21, 2023, 12:25:31 AM »
Chances are the past couple pages of this thread are going to be removed anyways. Over the last few weeks, much of the content online about him has been taken down.

Offline yawn

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3406 on: July 21, 2023, 12:25:41 AM »
In any other community I assume it would make the local news.

Anyway, I hope you’re right and everyone realizes that.
In any other community it's dog bites man and not at all newsworthy.

Offline yawn

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3407 on: July 21, 2023, 12:26:53 AM »
Chances are the past couple pages of this thread are going to be removed anyways. Over the last few weeks, much of the content online about him has been taken down.
Of course. Don't the Rothschilds control the internet?

Offline imayid2

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3408 on: July 21, 2023, 12:27:06 AM »
Chances are the past couple pages of this thread are going to be removed anyways. Over the last few weeks, much of the content online about him has been taken down.
Because they’ve been paying big bucks for that. Not sure how that works, that effects this site?

Offline imayid2

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3409 on: July 21, 2023, 12:29:56 AM »
and it was so obscure that it wasn't until 36 hours after it was published that someone here found it and mentioned it.
Some here found it before that, just didn’t mention it ;)

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3410 on: July 21, 2023, 12:34:28 AM »
Because they’ve been paying big bucks for that. Not sure how that works, that effects this site?

Looks like it works by amplifying other  mentions of people with similar or identical names. I don't think the mentions of these stories disappear, they just end up on the 20th page of results

Offline Alexsei

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3411 on: July 21, 2023, 12:49:59 AM »
Chances are the past couple pages of this thread are going to be removed anyways. Over the last few weeks, much of the content online about him has been taken down.
What content was taken down?

I'm praying that now that he was exposed and is forced to choose one identity he'll choose life.
יתמו חטאים ולא חוטאים
Jews ≠ Zionists
Palestinians ≠ Hamas
Satmar ≠ SatmarHQ

Offline S209

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3412 on: July 21, 2023, 11:29:37 AM »
This isn't that. A danger people need to be aware of is one thing. Something that has nothing to do with us is very different. We all have sins, and none of us want those acts to be discussed here. This guy just had the misfortune to have his sins broadcasted on TikTok and picked up by gossip rags.

I agree with this part of your post and would give half a like if I could.

As far as toeles, no one who is thinking of doing this is under any illusion that they won't be shamed and shunned if they are caught. They either think they won't get caught or that the risk is worth it. This conversation isn't preventing a single sin, just providing entertainment.
This part, on the other hand, I couldn’t disagree with more.

I’ve seen this sentiment expressed around here before, people saying public shaming, prison, and other consequences don’t help prevent further crimes, but nothing could be further from the truth. Every time people witness someone publicly shamed for their actions they become much less likely to sin in that fashion. The Torah uses this tool and all penal systems do as well. Public shaming is a massive deterrent.

Before every action we take we make a little cost-benefit analysis. When the seeming costs outweigh the seeming benefits we don’t perform the action. It isn’t perfect but to suggest this conversation won’t impact anyone reading this is simply incorrect. As you mentioned, all of us sin sometimes in some ways and realizing that we may be the next fellow talked about on DDF will certainly prevent some of us from pushing the envelope too far.

Still, I tend to agree with @YitzyS that even though it is likely not LH we should think about his unwitting victim (his son). It’s not quite the same as a molester, rapist, or fraudster where we have an overriding duty to his past and future victims to publicize and condemn his misdeeds.
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Offline Lurker

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3413 on: July 21, 2023, 12:04:41 PM »


I don't think you understood what I wrote. I said, "no one who is thinking of doing this is under any illusion that they won't be shamed and shunned if they are caught." The role of public shaming isn't in dispute. This conversation, however, is just gossip and pedestal preaching with no toeles, IMO. There's a difference between gossip and shaming. Just because we use shaming and shunning as a tool of deterence, that doesn't give us license to gossip.

That all said, I like the hock as much as the next guy... I don't really have a leg to stand on here. My point is that if we're going to talk about this here, acknowledge it for what it is. The righteous justification is BS, though.
Failing at maintaining Lurker status.

Offline imayid2

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3414 on: July 21, 2023, 12:13:54 PM »
I don't think you understood what I wrote. I said, "no one who is thinking of doing this is under any illusion that they won't be shamed and shunned if they are caught." The role of public shaming isn't in dispute. This conversation, however, is just gossip and pedestal preaching with no toeles, IMO. There's a difference between gossip and shaming. Just because we use shaming and shunning as a tool of deterence, that doesn't give us license to gossip.
Can we get a clear definition of what public shaming you approve of, and why you consider this conversation nothing more than BS and gossip without contribution to it?

Online YitzyS

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Offline S209

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3416 on: July 21, 2023, 12:59:14 PM »
I don't think you understood what I wrote. I said, "no one who is thinking of doing this is under any illusion that they won't be shamed and shunned if they are caught." The role of public shaming isn't in dispute. This conversation, however, is just gossip and pedestal preaching with no toeles, IMO. There's a difference between gossip and shaming. Just because we use shaming and shunning as a tool of deterence, that doesn't give us license to gossip.
On the contrary, I don’t think you understand what I wrote.

This is the public shaming that people fear and will prevent such acts from reoccurring at the same rate.


Each public conversation people have accomplishes heightening the fear people will have of being caught and therefore engaging in such acts in the future. Whether that is worth the cost to the innocent, I do not know. But it is not “just gossip with no toeles”.
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Offline Baruch

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3417 on: July 21, 2023, 01:11:36 PM »
They say that this proves what the Shineve Rav (I think) said that every litvak has a tzeilem in hartz....

/s
Misnagdim were the ones who made men into Gods?
(Not saying Chassidim did, but if anyone can be compared to Christianity....)

Offline imayid2

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3418 on: July 21, 2023, 01:15:00 PM »
Misnagdim were the ones who made men into Gods?
(Not saying Chassidim did, but if anyone can be compared to Christianity....)
See @jye comment who pointed this out so succinctly.

Offline Baruch

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3419 on: July 21, 2023, 01:16:20 PM »
See @jye comment who pointed this out so succinctly.
cant find, pls link