Author Topic: The Future of Lakewood  (Read 519084 times)

Offline jye

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4280 on: January 18, 2024, 04:35:29 PM »
I disagree with the premise of the original letter. While the gashmiyus in town has gotten out of hand, why is that an impediment on how one brings up their children? People need to have strong values and instill that in their children. Chinuch should not be based off of looking over ones shoulder and gasping fearfully and how much gashmiyus your neighbor has. Rather teach your children to be proud of your own value system.

I say this as a lifelong Lakewooder who recently moved to one of the surrounding towns. Perhaps we are in a better position to give this over to our children because we have fewer frum neighbors and each one is valued not based on what kind of clothes or house that they have but rather becuase they are a fellow frum yid? Perhaps because we didn't push to get into the so called "better" schools where the coemption is more fierce? Perhaps because I walk 20 minutes to shul every week with my children so we have more time to discuss life values? Maybe all of the above?   
Try doing that when the only school your child got into has every popular kid in the class steeped in the materialism culture. The Rambam says in hilchos deos that a smart mature adult will be נמשך after his סביבה despite his best efforts, and you want a child to resist? You can give him all the chinuch that you want at home and it will certainly help to a degree but in the end the day itís kind a like the poor immigrants who arrived in the melting pot of America trying to give their kids Torah values at home while they were surrounded by their assimilated, friends, neighbors, and classmates. It was pretty much a lost cause.

The currency these days is meat boards and Salt, Range Rovers, and private jets. The lighter version is electric bikes and Tiros, Mikes chicken, and Ski trips. The value of hand me downs, home baked goods, הצנע לכת , driving a serviceable older car, staycations, and the like, rather than celebrated, is viewed as an outdated מוסג from de alter heim.



« Last Edit: January 18, 2024, 05:46:41 PM by jye »

Offline YitzyS

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4281 on: January 18, 2024, 04:46:47 PM »
Speaking about gashmiyus, here is a great moshel from Rav Mattisyahu Salomon zt"l, from last week's Yated (article by R' Yossi Rosenberg).


Offline Pony

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4282 on: January 18, 2024, 05:18:49 PM »
Try doing that when the only school your child got into has every popular kid in the class steeped in the materialism culture.

Maybe try sending to some of the schools that are not considered the "best". We did that haven't regretted it for a day.

The Rambam says in hilchos deos that a smart mature adult will be נמשך after his סביבה despite his best efforts, and you want a child to resist? You can give him all the chinuch that you want at home and it will certainly help to a degree but in the end the day itís kind a like the poor immigrants who arrived in the melting pot of America trying to give their kids Torah values at home while they were surrounded by their assimilated, friends, neighbors, and classmates. It was pretty much a lost cause.
It's not a good comparison. There are many like minded individuals. Stick with them.

The currency these days is meat boards and Salt, Range Rovers, and private jets. The lighter version is electric bikes and Titoís, Mikes chicken, and Ski trips. The value of hand me downs, home baked goods, הצנע לכת , driving a serviceable older car, staycations, and the like, rather than celebrated, is viewed as an outdated מוסג from de alter heim.
Depends in what circles you travel. Even though there is a lot of obscene gashmiyus out there, if the chinuch can be strongly applied in a proud way, kids can be shown the beauty of a simple lifestyle.

 

Offline jye

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4283 on: January 18, 2024, 05:31:56 PM »

Maybe try sending to some of the schools that are not considered the "best". We did that haven't regretted it for a day.
Baruch Hashem we have and are very happy where we sent/send. Some of my teens have never been on a plane and have no desire to even though weíve offered.

Knowing someone somewhat involved with the school scene, many great Lakewood parents donít have a choice. They are lucky to get into one school, take it or leave it. Unless you count choosing a yesodos type school which is an even bigger סביבה issue.


Depends in what circles you travel. Even though there is a lot of obscene gashmiyus out there, if the chinuch can be strongly applied in a proud way, kids can be shown the beauty of a simple lifestyle.

Even if it can be pulled off on an individual level it does not address the letter writers point. For every one All For The Boss there are 99 other regular folks who arenít capable of swimming with their kids against the swift tide.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2024, 05:45:19 PM by jye »

Offline dealmaster

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4284 on: January 18, 2024, 06:13:22 PM »

Maybe try sending to some of the schools that are not considered the "best". We did that haven't regretted it for a day.
It's not a good comparison. There are many like minded individuals. Stick with them.
Depends in what circles you travel. Even though there is a lot of obscene gashmiyus out there, if the chinuch can be strongly applied in a proud way, kids can be shown the beauty of a simple lifestyle.

 
I would like to see you explain to your 10 year old why, despite the fact that 20% of his class(in "not the best school", your words) went on a vacation overseas for mid winter that isn't something we agree with. Or why the fact that a large percentage of the few Frum neighbors have xyz toy/play item doesn't necessitate getting it. Or any other examples that align with your perspectives or beliefs. I'm not saying it isn't doable but it isn't as simple as having 20 minute walks to Shul to discuss values, as mentioned above(although that certainly helps). For better and worse how we define "normal", "baseline" and "reasonable" is very much, though not exclusively, decided by our society. The point the article was making was that in a Torah based society as Lakewood, baseline has been bloated to obscene levels, which in some cases is, unfortunately, accurate. Ps in no way am I advocating giving in to every whim of your child, only pointing out that, far more than we would care to admit, we are affected by all of our society.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2024, 06:20:34 PM by dealmaster »
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Offline cholent

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4285 on: January 18, 2024, 06:19:55 PM »
I would like to see you explain to your 10 year old why, despite the fact that 20% of his class(in "not the best school", your words) went on a vacation overseas for mid winter that isn't something we agree with. Or why the fact that a large percentage of the few Frum neighbors have xyz toy/play item it isnt necessary for him. Or any other examples that align with your perspectives or beliefs. I'm not saying it isn't doable but it isn't as simple as having 20 minute walks to Shul to discuss values, as mentioned above(although that certainly helps). For better and worse how we define "normal", "baseline" and "reasonable" is very much, though not exclusively, decided by our society. The point the article was making was that in a Torah based society as Lakewood, baseline has been bloated to obscene levels, which in some cases is, unfortunately, accurate. Ps in no way am I advocating giving in to every whim of your child, only pointing out that, far more than we would care to admit, we are affected by all of our society.
More accurately, you can explain it but it's much harder to get them to a place where they won't want what so many of their classmates have
Don't ask stupid questions and you won't get stupid answers

Offline jye

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4286 on: January 18, 2024, 06:53:44 PM »
More accurately, you can explain it but it's much harder to get them to a place where they won't want what so many of their classmates have
It also depends very much on the childís temperament. I have a friend who sent all of his boys to a school that is pretty far to the left as far as Lakewood goes (he has a specific reason for doing so). He has an amazingly strong home with great values. All of his older boys were proud to be the outliers and did really well, top learners in great yeshivas with rock solid values. One of his younger boys has less of an independent streak and really needs to be accepted by the in crowd. He is adopting many of their values and outlook on life as well as mode of dress and my friend realizes that what worked for most of his kids wonít work for all of them.

Offline aygart

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4287 on: January 18, 2024, 07:19:54 PM »


Perhaps because we didn't push to get into the so called "better" schools where the coemption is more fierce?

This attitude connecting better and more materialism is part of the problem
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Euclid

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4288 on: January 18, 2024, 07:26:15 PM »
The currency these days is meat boards and Salt, Range Rovers, and private jets. The lighter version is electric bikes and Tiros, Mikes chicken, and Ski trips. The value of hand me downs, home baked goods, הצנע לכת , driving a serviceable older car, staycations, and the like, rather than celebrated, is viewed as an outdated מוסג from de alter heim.
Maybe this is what happens when the (resentful) kids raised with hand me downs grow up. They swing the pendulum as far as possible. Much of the young extravagant spenders in town grew up with parents in klei kodesh etc.

Offline EliJelly

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4289 on: January 18, 2024, 07:31:18 PM »

The currency these days is meat boards and Salt, Range Rovers, and private jets. The lighter version is electric bikes and Tiros, Mikes chicken, and Ski trips. The value of hand me downs, home baked goods, הצנע לכת , driving a serviceable older car, staycations, and the like, rather than celebrated, is viewed as an outdated מוסג from de alter heim.

I truly hope this doomed picture you paint is more to give the idea of what is out there today that was unheard of a while ago but still not what your kid is literally coming across on a daily basis.

Offline Dave321

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4290 on: January 18, 2024, 08:21:50 PM »
Don't even think about getting into an established school without a fat check

Offline aygart

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4291 on: January 18, 2024, 08:22:19 PM »
Don't even think about getting into an established school without a fat check
Meh
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline yungermanchik

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4292 on: January 18, 2024, 08:29:06 PM »
Don't even think about getting into an established school without a fat check
There are 3 doors:
one says PULL to get in,
 one says PUSH HARD to get in,
and the third says WE ACCEPT VISA & MASTERCARD

old joke
Small people talk about other people.
Average people talk about things
BIG PEOPLE TALK ABOUT IDEAS.

Offline dealfinder11

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4293 on: January 18, 2024, 08:35:41 PM »
Don't even think about getting into an established school without a fat check

Meh

Regarding Elementary schools:

Apply to the school that fits your lifestyle choices and use your saichel about where to apply and who to call up before, and you will get in without issue. Obviously certain years are tighter for certain schools so that should be taken into consideration when you apply. There are rare exceptions, but they are still rare.

IMO, most of the rhetoric comes from people applying to schools, while making lifestyle choices that are at a different standard than what the school is looking for. And while the school you have difficulty getting into may include families that you associate with, those families likely got in using the extraneous protekzia referenced.

Offline YitzyS

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4294 on: January 19, 2024, 12:43:06 AM »
Don't even think about getting into an established school without a fat check
Meh
I think that it depends on the year, as there are numerous factors that go into how much space a school has. I heard this year that Lakewood's biggest boys school has more slots than usual.

Offline Euclid

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4295 on: January 19, 2024, 12:46:36 AM »
I think that it depends on the year, as there are numerous factors that go into how much space a school has. I heard this year that Lakewood's biggest boys school has more slots than usual.
Possibly because the Jackson branch is much more popular

Offline avromie7

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4296 on: January 19, 2024, 05:55:42 AM »
I think that it depends on the year, as there are numerous factors that go into how much space a school has. I heard this year that Lakewood's biggest boys school has more slots than usual.
That's interesting, because I've been hearing that overall there's a shortage of slots for boys.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline dealfinder11

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4297 on: January 19, 2024, 08:36:41 AM »
I think that it depends on the year, as there are numerous factors that go into how much space a school has. I heard this year that Lakewood's biggest boys school has more slots than usual.

Anecdotally i heard of at least 3 large established schools that had "a larger than usual number" of slots, and the newer schools had far fewer. There were a number of theories for this. The one I heard the most was that the more established schools have older parent bodies, and are now starting to have significantly less "sibling slots" being occupied. In combination with some other related factors obviously.

Offline JMHO

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4298 on: January 19, 2024, 09:04:12 AM »
In combination with some other related factors obviously.
Namely?

Offline aygart

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4299 on: January 19, 2024, 09:15:05 AM »
I think that it depends on the year, as there are numerous factors that go into how much space a school has. I heard this year that Lakewood's biggest boys school has more slots than usual.

For the last three years there was not a single non sibling slot in the Cheder FWIU. This means there was not a single oldest boy in the entire grade. Part of this was because they cut down a class and moved it to the Jackson Cheder. After 3 years Jackson mostly fills up from sibling from the first 3 years, while now Lakewood will have much fewer second children since there were no firsts for three years.
Feelings don't care about your facts