The Future of Lakewood

[yelped]

Parents wanting their children to have a robust secular education doesn’t necessarily mean the children have any interest. Children without interest make it hard to teach.

Boys who excel in לימודי קודש  have little interest in the mostly useless subjects taught in HS.

A parent who wants a better לימודי קודש program will always be forced to give up on the לימודי חול aspect.

Which subjects are "mostly useless"?

If you have such an attitude, no wonder your kids don't want to learn "secular" subjects. There is no such as "secular" subjects, anyways.

I have yet to find a subject that is "useless" (and please don't give me garbage about the garbage that is out there. That is not relevant to our schools).

[Young explorer]

Curious if this is indeed true that they are considered equally top (learning wise) to places that don’t. (I don’t know any of these places personally)

my nephew is currently in Weinberger's and I'm really impressed with the crowd overall and he's really solid stuff, you would not be able to tell the diff that he's there over top yeshivos. and he didn't go in there as a major learner in 9th grade, so they must have a good formula... (btw he's not in shidduchim yet  )

[aygart]

Which subjects are "mostly useless"?

If you have such an attitude, no wonder your kids don't want to learn "secular" subjects. There is no such as "secular" subjects, anyways.

I have yet to find a subject that is "useless" (and please don't give me garbage about the garbage that is out there. That is not relevant to our schools).

HTere are definitely items that are of limited use even if you want to argue that all knowledge has a use. There is very little benefit in knowing the philosophy of Confucius and the science of igneous rock layers for the vast majority of people.

[aygart]

I moved and never updated. It's not a great conspiracy.

The bafflement suggests you learnt critical thinking in Lakewood schools...

Which schools have a strong department? That the Hanhala and the rebbeim and thenstudent body are machshav English and it's not viewed as some big game?

My kids were and are in the Cheder and none of them had formal secular studies in Mesivta but they went to a separate GED program. We found that the secular dept. in the Cheder is not at all run as a joke and boys can come out with basic language and math skills. If they then go to a GED program they can have enough skills for anything they need. My oldest son is currently in pre-med with a high GPA.

[aygart]

Why is 20 years ago relevant?

Because you wrote

A parent who wants a better לימודי קודש program will always be forced to give up on the לימודי חול aspect.

and if it is only a question of the current style in Lakewood then the "will always" is untrue.

[imayid2]

Which subjects are "mostly useless"?

If you have such an attitude, no wonder your kids don't want to learn "secular" subjects. There is no such as "secular" subjects, anyways.

I have yet to find a subject that is "useless" (and please don't give me garbage about the garbage that is out there. That is not relevant to our schools).

Lol is this a joke?

So let’s hear where it gets you in life to study Shakespeare? Why does anyone need to know calculus or geometry?

My Yeshiva had general studies through 12th grade. It’s a holy waste of time.

[imayid2]

My kids were and are in the Cheder and none of them had formal secular studies in Mesivta but they went to a separate GED program. We found that the secular dept. in the Cheder is not at all run as a joke and boys can come out with basic language and math skills. If they then go to a GED program they can have enough skills for anything they need. My oldest son is currently in pre-med with a high GPA.

My parents pulled me out of the English department and hired a tutor instead for a while when I was there because they weren’t satisfied.
Perhaps it has changed for the better since.

[aygart]

Why does anyone need to know .... geometry?

Lol is this a joke?

[yfr bachur]

HTere are definitely items that are of limited use even if you want to argue that all knowledge has a use. There is very little benefit in knowing the philosophy of Confucius and the science of igneous rock layers for the vast majority of people.

So let’s hear where it gets you in life to study Shakespeare? Why does anyone need to know calculus or geometry?

I went to, well you can tell from my screen name...
So we never learned about Confucius's philosophies, nor any of the other ancient garbage philosophies out there (you don't need to, to pass the regents or AP US history...), but knowledge of some of them are usefull especially when learning the machshava of rishonim.
But my frumy cousin who went to a learning all the time Mesivta comes to me all the time to find out what the metzius is behind this sugya or the other... Zmanim, Molad, Maazalos, how does the water get into the ground and come out in a maayan etc.
I've helped numerous friends and relatives who never learned basic economics - bec they didnt take economics, they were maybe, maybe learning an extra 10 blatt bekius in a winter zman - steer clear of risky investments.
My math and geometry skills were a great help when I learned Eiruvin - to the point that there were sugyos that I had chidushim in, that almost no one in the chabura could understand - bec the hadn't the background in geometery (I later found some of them in the Tashbatz and Meiri).
If you learn some math and science, its much harder to be fooled by the vast amount of garbage science and statistics in the anti vax movement.

[yfr bachur]

My Yeshiva had general studies through 12th grade. It’s a holy waste of time.

Well if the program is run like this:

My parents pulled me out of the English department and hired a tutor instead for a while when I was there because they weren’t satisfied.

No wonder you think that way

[Euclid]

Why does anyone need to know calculus or geometry?

I have a degree in Computer Science and I struggled with the parts that required a calculus foundation. It's integral (no pun intended) to machine learning amongst other things. 

[Euclid]

If you learn some math and science, its much harder to be fooled by the vast amount of garbage science and statistics in the anti vax movement.

Anecdotally, this definitely seems to be true.

[imayid2]

Well if the program is run like this:No wonder you think that way

Spoiler: Different schools

[imayid2]

Can you enlighten me how the regular Joe will use this IRL?

[imayid2]

I have a degree in Computer Science and I struggled with the parts that required a calculus foundation. It's integral (no pun intended) to machine learning amongst other things.

Of course there are specific things which specific areas entail. For most of the population calculus is utterly useless.

[aygart]

Can you enlighten me how the regular Joe will use this IRL?

Square footage

[yfr bachur]

Can you enlighten me how the regular Joe will use this IRL?

What. geometry?
Any time you figure out the area/volume/size of anything you use geometry.

You want to get fixated on calculus, fine.

World history is essential for understanding Jewish history.
much of natural sciences (bio, earth sci, maybe less chem and physics, but i wouldn't know bec I never learned them) will be useful at some point in many peoples lives
math in general is important for everyone.
Good Writing skills in ENGLISH are essential for most people in the workforce.
...

[Definitions2]

Geometry is a no brainer that it's important. Anytime you want to measure something to build anything or figure things out if it'll fit. Which will happen a decent amount of times in a regular person's life.

Calculus I can agree it's only important if you're planning on pursuing something that needs it.

[imayid2]

Square footage

People who didn’t study geometry in HS can’t figure that out? I don’t care if it’s called geometry, you don’t need to spend a year studying it for that type of basic stuff.

[yfr bachur]

People who didn’t study geometry in HS can’t figure that out? I don’t care if it’s called geometry, you don’t need to spend a year studying it for that type of basic stuff.

Maybe square rooms.
Add in diagonals, convex and concave curves... No chance.
It takes me time to remember the formulas each time I need to do it (bec i dont use the skills often)