The Future of Lakewood

[yelped]

Critical thinking skills might have helped you understand the point I’m trying to make.


Do you think this way of talking is conducive?

Explain how is not useful? There are many times that natural sciences and advanced math have come in handy to me and most other adults can tell you that. I can hardly fathom why you would be against the acquisition of more knowledge.

[yelped]

If I argue that even if there is benefit, the harms outweigh the benefts by a long shot, is that also a moronic 12 year old position?

I'm not getting involved in a disucssion about what schools in Lakewood should or shouldn't teach, only to say that plenty who are smarter and wiser than you held more extreme positions than the ones you find moronic, and it might behoove us to calm the rhetoric a bit.

The one thing I would say IS moronic is the idea that ANY chinuch approach is equally applicable to tens of thousands of students.

No. The idea that it is not useful and trying to get away with such a statement is moronic. I am well aware of and respect the Lubavitcher Rebbe's shita regarding limudei chol.

[imayid2]

Explain how is not useful? There are many times that natural sciences and advanced math have come in handy to me and most other adults can tell you that. I can hardly fathom why you would be against the acquisition of more knowledge.

For the purposes of this conversation I tend to think it would be more effective if you can elaborate on what you find, and contend applies to most adults, practically useful in advanced math and sciences. It’s a bit difficult to elaborate on why I don’t think something is useful without that starting point.

I don’t see what the beauty of acquiring knowledge has to do with this part of the conversation.

[aygart]

Explain how is not useful? There are many times that natural sciences and advanced math have come in handy to me and most other adults can tell you that. I can hardly fathom why you would be against the acquisition of more knowledge.

I would imagine that knowledge of the philosophies of Confucius and the science of igneous rock layers may end up useful on a practical level but the vast majority of people will never come back to it for the rest of their lives. Does the knowledge have intrinsic value? Maybe, but how to weigh that into a mesivta schedule is a shita question and not a practical one.

[shapsam]

I worked in a company with a few hundred employees. The majority of people in the company and almost all in managerial positions have had zero high school education in general studies, many started with about a 4th grade level in English... That didn't hold them back of selling and operating 100s of millions in sales a year, and people in the accounting department becoming CPAs etc. etc. This is the same in many (most?) frum companies across a broad range of industries.

While I think we should all have a basic level of general studies education, anything more advanced than 6-7th grade can be later on in life as it pertains to an individual's employment/business, and in my experience, people learn concepts in weeks or months that are taught in school over many years.

[imayid2]

https://www.wbur.org/news/2017/04/10/advance-math-numeracy-andrew-hacker

[WayBackMachine]

יש לשאול בכל הני רפואות הנזכרים בהאי פרקא גם בפרק אין מעמידין אמאי כתבוהו רבינא ורב אשי בתלמוד הא אמרינן בפ״ק דברכות והטוב בעיניך עשיתי שגנז חזקיהו ספר הרפואות כדי שיבקשו רחמים ושבחוהו חכמים על זאת ויש ליישב דודאי ניתן רשות לרפאות ולידע רפואות כל חלאים אלא שאין ראוי לגלות כולם לכל אדם משום אינשי דלא מעלי שלא יבטחו בה׳ אלא ברפואתם והשתא מה״ט שהותר להם לכתוב התלמוד גופיה דהא דברים שבעל פה אסור לכותבן אבל משום שנתרבה השכחה בדורות האחרונים הותר להם לכתוב משום עת לעשות לה׳ וגו׳ (כדאמר לעיל גיטין ס.) מה״ט הותרו להם לכתוב הרפואות ולגלותן לרבים כיון שא״א לזוכרם בע״פ ופן ישתכחו מכל אדם
ומתוך זה תראה שאין התלמוד חסר מכל החכמות
כי לכל חולי תמצא בו רפואה שלימה ואמתית למבינים לשונם ואל יאמר המלעיג על חכמי התלמוד שהיו חסרים מחכמת הרפואה:

[TheAsh]

I worked in a company with a few hundred employees. The majority of people in the company and almost all in managerial positions have had zero high school education in general studies, many started with about a 4th grade level in English... That didn't hold them back of selling and operating 100s of millions in sales a year, and people in the accounting department becoming CPAs etc. etc. This is the same in many (most?) frum companies across a broad range of industries.

While I think we should all have a basic level of general studies education, anything more advanced than 6-7th grade can be later on in life as it pertains to an individual's employment/business, and in my experience, people learn concepts in weeks or months that are taught in school over many years.

1) this is simply survivorship bias. We need to look at total percentages. And many of those frum people graduated well before the extreme collapse of secular studies. Three generations in, and we have am idiocracy-like society.

2) generally the frum people are all in certain areas. The areas that require independent scientific research are all underrepresented by frum people. Gone are the days of the chareidi scientist.

[TheAsh]

Ok let’s say they are learning. They believe all learning is immensely important and isn’t measured by “usefulness” in day to day life.

This is the issue.

Secular studies, despite being extremely useful, is accepted as useless unless you can figure out how every single boy in Lakewood can potentially use it every day.

But yeshivish style learning is assumed to be magically useful no matter what and no proof is required for that assertion whatsoever, despite the gemara saying אין הלימוד אלא לבא לידי מעשה.

[TheAsh]

יש לשאול בכל הני רפואות הנזכרים בהאי פרקא גם בפרק אין מעמידין אמאי כתבוהו רבינא ורב אשי בתלמוד הא אמרינן בפ״ק דברכות והטוב בעיניך עשיתי שגנז חזקיהו ספר הרפואות כדי שיבקשו רחמים ושבחוהו חכמים על זאת ויש ליישב דודאי ניתן רשות לרפאות ולידע רפואות כל חלאים אלא שאין ראוי לגלות כולם לכל אדם משום אינשי דלא מעלי שלא יבטחו בה׳ אלא ברפואתם והשתא מה״ט שהותר להם לכתוב התלמוד גופיה דהא דברים שבעל פה אסור לכותבן אבל משום שנתרבה השכחה בדורות האחרונים הותר להם לכתוב משום עת לעשות לה׳ וגו׳ (כדאמר לעיל גיטין ס.) מה״ט הותרו להם לכתוב הרפואות ולגלותן לרבים כיון שא״א לזוכרם בע״פ ופן ישתכחו מכל אדם
ומתוך זה תראה שאין התלמוד חסר מכל החכמות
כי לכל חולי תמצא בו רפואה שלימה ואמתית למבינים לשונם ואל יאמר המלעיג על חכמי התלמוד שהיו חסרים מחכמת הרפואה:

Yeah this is nice, but it it isn't true.

[yitzgar]

אין הלימוד אלא לבא לידי מעשה.

Source?

[TheAsh]

Source?

It's many places. Google it. (It's from the sugya of עוסק במצוה פטור מן המצוה)

[imayid2]

Yeah this is nice, but it it isn't true.

This depends how you interpret it. Definitely true regarding the חכמות of their era. But that might be counterproductive to that argument.

[TheAsh]

This depends how you interpret it. Definitely true regarding the חכמות of their era. But that might be counterproductive to that argument.

Not even that, but it's fine. Not going to belabor the point.

[TheAsh]

1) this is simply survivorship bias. We need to look at total percentages. And many of those frum people graduated well before the extreme collapse of secular studies. Three generations in, and we have am idiocracy-like society.

2) generally the frum people are all in certain areas. The areas that require independent scientific research are all underrepresented by frum people. Gone are the days of the chareidi scientist.

We already see it with the higher percentage of conspiracy theorists and antivaxxers in the chasidish and now the yeshivish communities. There's a reason measles spread through our communities exclusively. It can be directly tied to a suspiciousness of science.

[imayid2]

Definitely popcorn material

[Euclid]

We already see it with the higher percentage of conspiracy theorists and antivaxxers in the chasidish and now the yeshivish communities. There's a reason measles spread through our communities exclusively. It can be directly tied to a suspiciousness of science.

Also related to the politics obsession in our community IMO

[yawn]

Also related to the politics obsession in our community IMO

99% of that obsession is that politics is viewed by many as the only kosher form of entertainment.

[aygart]

measles spread through our communities exclusively.

Fact check: false
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/what-we-know-about-the-measles-cases-reported-in-2024/

https://www.montgomerycountypa.gov/4507/Measles---updated-January-29-2024#:~:text=Montgomery%20County%20Health%20Officials%20are,confirmed%20cases%20in%20Montgomery%20County.

[Definitions2]

It's many places. Google it. (It's from the sugya of עוסק במצוה פטור מן המצוה)

Can I get some starting points? It's hard to Google a specific thing like this.

Also just to clarify you're saying there's no mitzvah to learn gemara with all the meforshim if it won't bring you to be mekayim any mitzva?