The Future of Lakewood

[WayBackMachine]

Yeah this is nice, but it it isn't true.

if this is what you write on the מהרש"א, I rather not be educated at all, thanks

[EliJelly]

[Definitions2]

What's included in shar chochmos?

[TheAsh]

if this is what you write on the מהרש"א, I rather not be educated at all, thanks

I don't know ow how one can say that all of mathematics for example is in the gemara.

[EliJelly]

What's included in shar chochmos?

He's very clearly listing a few, anatomy, geometry and lehavdil even Mikra al pi pshat. He isn't against it per se but against focusing on it in the younger years.

[imayid2]

The Ḥatam Sofer's Nuanced Attitude Towards Secular Learning, "Maskilim", and Reformers AARON M. SCHREIBER

Setting the Record Straight:
Was the Chasam Sofer Inconsistent? A Review Essay By: NOSSON DOVID RABINOWICH
 

[EliJelly]

The Ḥatam Sofer's Nuanced Attitude Towards Secular Learning, "Maskilim", and Reformers AARON M. SCHREIBER

Setting the Record Straight:
Was the Chasam Sofer Inconsistent? A Review Essay By: NOSSON DOVID RABINOWICH

The first link doesn't load properly but from the responses in the second I'd say it's gevaldig that first doesn't load. 
Second looks great...

[imayid2]

The first link doesn't load properly but from the responses in the second I'd say it's gevaldig that first doesn't load. 
Second looks great...

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EoBw7j4vszGCx69GTnMbtY19dSC7ymNC/view?usp=drivesdk

[EliJelly]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EoBw7j4vszGCx69GTnMbtY19dSC7ymNC/view?usp=drivesdk

I'd rather take it from where it is being refuted..

[gozalim]

This is the issue.

Secular studies, despite being extremely useful, is accepted as useless unless you can figure out how every single boy in Lakewood can potentially use it every day.

But yeshivish style learning is assumed to be magically useful no matter what and no proof is required for that assertion whatsoever, despite the gemara saying אין הלימוד אלא לבא לידי מעשה.

wether שאר חכמות have inherent value is an old debate (going back at least to תורה עם דרך ארץ movement), and we'll keep on rehashing for the foreseeable future.

but the inherent value of every moment and word of studying Toras Hashem is not up for debate in any charedi society.

don't let your frustrations around the former cloud your respect for the latter. If you do, it will only reinforce precisely the position you're frustrated by in the first place

[TheAsh]

wether שאר חכמות have inherent value is an old debate (going back at least to תורה עם דרך ארץ movement), and we'll keep on rehashing for the foreseeable future.

but the inherent value of every moment and word of studying Toras Hashem is not up for debate in any charedi society.

don't let your frustrations around the former cloud your respect for the latter. If you do, it will only reinforce precisely the position you're frustrated by in the first place

Fair point.

[shapsam]

1) this is simply survivorship bias. We need to look at total percentages. And many of those frum people graduated well before the extreme collapse of secular studies. Three generations in, and we have am idiocracy-like society.

2) generally the frum people are all in certain areas. The areas that require independent scientific research are all underrepresented by frum people. Gone are the days of the chareidi scientist.

The vast majority of the current frum (non modox or OOT) male workforce never graduated high school with general studies. Many professionals also never graduated high school but still got degrees later on in life.

We are in almost every industry, it's not just the stereotypical real estate and healthcare. And chareidy scientist? What's the average scientist's salary? I don't see why too many people in our community would pursue such a career, the frum owned businesses needing scientists know where and how to hire them, and if not, we'll figure it out fairly quickly. Exactly my point.

[YitzyS]

The sun on the hottest day of the year gets to just about 23 degrees latitude above the equator. Eretz Yisroel is about 34 degrees north. That means that the sun is always at least on an 11 degree angle coming down over Eretz Yisroel.

According to one shitta in the Gemara in Sukkah, a Sukkah that is more than 20 amos high is only pasul when the width and length are both just 7 tefachim - because then the shade is coming from the walls. But in a sukkah that is larger than 7x7, you can make it higher than 20 amos because the shade will come from the sechach.

But if you figure 11 degrees of angle on the sunlight, and to commutate using sin cos and tan, you will see that in a 7x7 sukkah the sunlight coming on 11 degrees will only make it about 8 amos down the wall, not nearly the 20 amos needed?

And that, my students, is why you need to know trigonometry.

ETA:

[EliJelly]

The sun on the hottest day of the year gets to just about 23 degrees latitude above the equator. Eretz Yisroel is about 34 degrees north. That means that the sun is always at least on an 11 degree angle coming down over Eretz Yisroel.

According to one shitta in the Gemara in Sukkah, a Sukkah that is more than 20 amos high is only pasul when the width and length are both just 7 tefachim - because then the shade is coming from the walls. But in a sukkah that is larger than 7x7, you can make it higher than 20 amos because the shade will come from the sechach.

But if you figure 11 degrees of angle on the sunlight, and to commutate using sin cos and tan, you will see that in a 7x7 sukkah the sunlight coming on 11 degrees will only make it about 8 amos down the wall, not nearly the 20 amos needed?

And that, my students, is why you need to know trigonometry.

Sukkos time the sun is basically centered above the equater, thus EY being like 34 degrees off.

[shapsam]

The sun on the hottest day of the year gets to just about 23 degrees latitude above the equator. Eretz Yisroel is about 34 degrees north. That means that the sun is always at least on an 11 degree angle coming down over Eretz Yisroel.

According to one shitta in the Gemara in Sukkah, a Sukkah that is more than 20 amos high is only pasul when the width and length are both just 7 tefachim - because then the shade is coming from the walls. But in a sukkah that is larger than 7x7, you can make it higher than 20 amos because the shade will come from the sechach.

But if you figure 11 degrees of angle on the sunlight, and to commutate using sin cos and tan, you will see that in a 7x7 sukkah the sunlight coming on 11 degrees will only make it about 8 amos down the wall, not nearly the 20 amos needed?

And that, my students, is why you need to know trigonometry.

You just taught me a nice piece in hilchos sukka which I understood in the 30 seconds it took me to read this, without ever having taken a class in trigonometry. Good I didn't waste a year of high school on this. 

[YitzyS]

Sukkos time the sun is basically centered above the equater, thus EY being like 34 degrees off.

Okay, so it just makes the question more difficult! But you need trigonometry to figure out how little it would shine down the wall.

[YitzyS]

BTW, I found this question in a kuntris I saw floating around BMG a few years ago.

[shapsam]

Okay, so it just makes the question more difficult! But you need trigonometry to figure out how little it would shine down the wall.

https://www.google.com/search?q=trigonometry+calculator

[Euclid]

The vast majority of the current frum (non modox or OOT) male workforce never graduated high school with general studies. Many professionals also never graduated high school but still got degrees later on in life.

We are in almost every industry, it's not just the stereotypical real estate and healthcare. And chareidy scientist? What's the average scientist's salary? I don't see why too many people in our community would pursue such a career, the frum owned businesses needing scientists know where and how to hire them, and if not, we'll figure it out fairly quickly. Exactly my point.

Having no general studies outlet is also a great way to ensure males leave learning and enter the workforce at a younger age.

Disclaimer: I'm mostly joking and am saying it to make a point. There's probably a kernel of truth, but not as extreme as I'm making it out to

[shapsam]

Having no general studies outlet is also a great way to ensure males leave learning and enter the workforce at a younger age.

Disclaimer: I'm mostly joking and am saying it to make a point. There's probably a kernel of truth, but not as extreme as I'm making it out to

I hear the argument about using it as an outlet much more than arguing it's absolutely needed throughout life. And once we go down that road, IMO the system in general is not cut out for many boys who would do a lot better with different studies in both lemudei kodesh and lemudei chol.