Author Topic: The Future of Lakewood  (Read 536717 times)

Offline jye

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3320 on: July 20, 2023, 05:08:17 PM »
Yes.
It is יהרג ואל יעבור to impersonate as a Christian.
Source? He talked about his supposed shared catholic upbringing to woo girls and wore the cross just as many non believing goyim do these days. Is there any reason to assume that he professed to be a religious believing catholic while sleeping around outside of marriage which is against catholic beliefs? Is his professed upbringing and his choice of jewelry enough to take him out of the category of מומר לתיאבון , even if done repeatedly?

Offline imayid2

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3321 on: July 20, 2023, 05:11:45 PM »
Source?
It is יהרג ואל יעבור to say you are a Christian.
See יו״ד קנ״ז ב.

Offline imayid2

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3322 on: July 20, 2023, 05:14:41 PM »
Is his professed upbringing and his choice of jewelry enough to take him out of the category of מומר לתיאבון , even if done repeatedly?
Even if not he was פורק ממנו עול מלכות שמים לגמרי.

Offline imayid2

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3323 on: July 20, 2023, 05:26:06 PM »
I'm not trying to preach. I know his family, and I can't imagine how much they are already hurt from his actions.
Iím sure they are going through a rough time. Nothing here is about them. I think itís perfectly in line to express shock indignation and outrage about what he did, and it shouldnít make it more painful to them that people think so.

חפץ חיים כלל י ד
שיתרחקו הבריות מדרך רשע כשישמעו שאנשים מגנים פועלי און

Offline YitzyS

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3324 on: July 20, 2023, 06:01:44 PM »
Isnít he divorced?
Indeed, but he was married until recently. And his son will always be his son.

Iím sure they are going through a rough time. Nothing here is about them. I think itís perfectly in line to express shock indignation and outrage about what he did, and it shouldnít make it more painful to them that people think so.

חפץ חיים כלל י ד
שיתרחקו הבריות מדרך רשע כשישמעו שאנשים מגנים פועלי און

I'm not saying that it's not normal or allowed. I'm saying that it can have negative implications for victims.

Imagine his son, now 12-years-old, and being at least somewhat in the dark about what went on. He gets a little older and comes across the Daily Beast article or is told by others about his biological father's antics. He's shocked and embarrassed, but he can save face by convincing himself that none of his friends read it and that the frum community doesn't know of his father's actions. But when a quick Google search brings up DDF and he sees that everyone in the frum community hashed out every aspect of his father's infidelity, he may forever walk around with a stigma on him.

Not saying I would've thought to consider this if it would've been a random stranger. Perhaps it is a fault in me. But since I know them, and I know how upstanding and innocent they are, this consideration bothers me.

Offline imayid2

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3325 on: July 20, 2023, 06:34:07 PM »
Indeed, but he was married until recently. And his son will always be his son.
I'm not saying that it's not normal or allowed. I'm saying that it can have negative implications for victims.

Imagine his son, now 12-years-old, and being at least somewhat in the dark about what went on. He gets a little older and comes across the Daily Beast article or is told by others about his biological father's antics. He's shocked and embarrassed, but he can save face by convincing himself that none of his friends read it and that the frum community doesn't know of his father's actions. But when a quick Google search brings up DDF and he sees that everyone in the frum community hashed out every aspect of his father's infidelity, he may forever walk around with a stigma on him.

Not saying I would've thought to consider this if it would've been a random stranger. Perhaps it is a fault in me. But since I know them, and I know how upstanding and innocent they are, this consideration bothers me.
I here your point, though it technically applies to any and every pervert who commits the most egregious of crimes. This natural consequence is the another causality caused by the perpetrator, really.

Online Sammy82

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3326 on: July 20, 2023, 06:40:20 PM »
I here your point, though it technically applies to any and every pervert who commits the most egregious of crimes. This natural consequence is the another causality caused by the perpetrator, really.
What does anybody gain by hashing it out here? If it was a scam and people were 'being saved' from investing or whatever, then MAYBE, but this???

Offline jye

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3327 on: July 20, 2023, 06:50:57 PM »
Even if they're clearly wearing it as part of a persona, and not because they actually believe in Christianity?

It is יהרג ואל יעבור to say you are a Christian.
See יו״ד קנ״ז ב.

I wonder if that truly applies nowadays when a significant percentage of US Catholics do not even believe in G-d and calling themselves catholic is more of a cultural affiliation. A Jew saying he is ďa catholicĒ might very well be a לישנא דמשתמע לתרי אנפי.

Offline ellemeno

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3328 on: July 20, 2023, 06:53:45 PM »
Source? He talked about his supposed shared catholic upbringing to woo girls and wore the cross just as many non believing goyim do these days. Is there any reason to assume that he professed to be a religious believing catholic while sleeping around outside of marriage which is against catholic beliefs? Is his professed upbringing and his choice of jewelry enough to take him out of the category of מומר לתיאבון , even if done repeatedly?
This is to emphasize the חומר הענין, not to compare the two.

https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=37161&st=&pgnum=99
« Last Edit: July 20, 2023, 07:26:47 PM by ellemeno »

Offline MarkS

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3329 on: July 20, 2023, 06:57:04 PM »
At least he was trying to fulfill this...
אמר רבי אלעאי הזקן: אם רואה אדם שיצרו מתגבר עליו, ילך למקום שאין מכירין אותו, וילבש שחורים ויתכסה שחורים ויעשה כמו שלבו חפץ, ואל יחלל שם שמים בפרהסיא

Offline YitzyS

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3330 on: July 20, 2023, 06:57:57 PM »
I here your point, though it technically applies to any and every pervert who commits the most egregious of crimes. This natural consequence is the another causality caused by the perpetrator, really.
This. Thank you Sammy82 for posted what I was thinking.
What does anybody gain by hashing it out here? If it was a scam and people were 'being saved' from investing or whatever, then MAYBE, but this???

Offline yawn

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3331 on: July 20, 2023, 06:58:27 PM »
I here your point, though it technically applies to any and every pervert who commits the most egregious of crimes. This natural consequence is the another causality caused by the perpetrator, really.
This may be a distinction without a difference, but in most instances there are victims whom we feel bad for and use their pain to justify our gossip. And we don't focus on the pain of perpetrators children because it often pales in comparison to the pain of the victims children. But this was pretty much a victimless "crime." Not much time was spent on DDF maligning at least 2 individuals recently involved in medicaid fraud, primarily because they are victimless crimes. So yes it's good hock but at the end of the day is it worth it?

Offline jye

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3332 on: July 20, 2023, 07:16:12 PM »
This may be a distinction without a difference, but in most instances there are victims whom we feel bad for and use their pain to justify our gossip. And we don't focus on the pain of perpetrators children because it often pales in comparison to the pain of the victims children. But this was pretty much a victimless "crime." Not much time was spent on DDF maligning at least 2 individuals recently involved in medicaid fraud, primarily because they are victimless crimes. So yes it's good hock but at the end of the day is it worth it?
Victimless until one of them is wearing a wire entrapping othersÖ.

Offline imayid2

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3333 on: July 20, 2023, 07:26:36 PM »
I wonder if that truly applies nowadays when a significant percentage of US Catholics do not even believe in G-d and calling themselves catholic is more of a cultural affiliation. A Jew saying he is ďa catholicĒ might very well be a לישנא דמשתמע לתרי אנפי.
I strongly disagree with this.

Offline ari3

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3334 on: July 20, 2023, 07:30:09 PM »
Cross wearers arenít protected by the rules of LH.
But his mother and cousin (who were publicly named) are

Offline imayid2

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3335 on: July 20, 2023, 07:30:34 PM »
This. Thank you Sammy82 for posted what I was thinking.
There are lessons to be learned here imo. When somebody so brilliant in Torah learning can still fall so low, it should teach us about the importance of proper yirah with Torah.

Offline imayid2

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3336 on: July 20, 2023, 07:31:23 PM »
But his mother and cousin (who were publicly named) are
So itís LH about them?
Source?

Offline jye

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3337 on: July 20, 2023, 07:31:51 PM »
I strongly disagree with this.
The fact that describing oneself as a blue eyed white male catholic on a dating site for example can be ethnic rather than belief, or the tzad that it might be considered תרי אנפי?

Offline imayid2

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3338 on: July 20, 2023, 07:33:06 PM »
The fact that describing oneself as a blue eyed white male catholic on a dating site for example can be ethnic rather than belief, or the tzad that it might be considered תרי אנפי?
The guy was wearing a cross and identifying as Catholic for heaven sake!

Online Sammy82

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3339 on: July 20, 2023, 07:34:43 PM »
There are lessons to be learned here imo. When somebody so brilliant in Torah learning can still fall so low, it should teach us about the importance of proper yirah with Torah.
Give me a break. If ur learning that from this forum, the lesson may be to get off the internet.
If u want to just gossip, come straight out and say it. Don't try to justify it with the most cruma svaras.