Author Topic: The Future of Lakewood  (Read 536876 times)

Offline YitzyS

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3360 on: July 20, 2023, 09:50:29 PM »
And for everyone else: My reservations are about hashing out all the details in a real nitty gritty way, YWN-style. At this point, it's not about informing people of the story. It's about analyzing and joking about every aspect of the story. And while there are other stories unfortunately in which there is a factor of warning the community, this story probably doesn't have that aspect.

Is "the entire frum community on DDF"? Of course not, I didn't say they were. I said that the son will THINK that the whole frum community knows, because he doesn't know how wide-spread DDF is. Also, as someone noted above, any visitor can see posts. In any event, if it's hashed like this, the son may suspect that any person he meets knows his father's wrongdoing, and it can mess up his life in a much more serious way.

The only redeeming factor is that so far, nobody posted a name, so hopefully this thread won't come up if he ever does a Google search.

Offline dasmo801

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3361 on: July 20, 2023, 10:06:46 PM »

I'm just amazed at everyone finding justification in a Talmud chacham with semicha cv wearing a cross!!

Greater the man, greater the sin! Jeez...


Probably the most unintentionally ironic comment ever written.

Offline chevron

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3362 on: July 20, 2023, 10:08:37 PM »
I

think

that

I'm

very

close

to

adding

another

name

to

my

ignore

list

which

will

be

just

the

second

name

on

the

list

So what's stopping you put me on ignore?

Offline Euclid

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The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3363 on: July 20, 2023, 10:09:00 PM »
Probably the most unintentionally ironic comment ever written.
Cheese 'n rice

Offline YitzyS

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3364 on: July 20, 2023, 10:13:46 PM »
So what's stopping you put me on ignore?
You've said a lot of smart things over the years, and I often appreciate your perspective.

In general, I don't ignore people who disagree with me. I ignore people who I think are consistently not talking sensibly AND/OR who also show disrespect for things I hold sacred.

Offline YitzyS

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3365 on: July 20, 2023, 10:18:36 PM »
The notion that we can exacerbate the destruction of his kid's life without a clear upside is cruel and very wrong.

When there is a clear upside to spreading the info, then you have a shaalah to ask. But it's really questionable if that is the reality in this case.

Offline imayid2

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3366 on: July 20, 2023, 10:34:44 PM »
When there is a clear upside to spreading the info, then you have a shaalah to ask. But it's really questionable if that is the reality in this case.
What spreading information are you referring to? If youíre protesting the original posting about the story/article I get it. But beyond that, discussing the info in the expose that was noted originally, isnít spreading info.

Offline Dan

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3367 on: July 20, 2023, 10:35:02 PM »
It has a place because there are lessons to be learned for us.
It also important for others to know that they can't sin in such a manner and expect it to be covered up.
Collateral damage to children is always unfortunate, but that's on the sinner, not on the people learning valuable lessons.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline EliJelly

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3368 on: July 20, 2023, 10:35:24 PM »
They say that this proves what the Shineve Rav (I think) said that every litvak has a tzeilem in hartz....

/s

Na, not the Shinever Rav. Actually quite easy to remember (and a Belzer should!  ;) ), typically, it was the Minkatcher Rov. If what they say over is true it's indeed very sharp... I'll post it in yiddish.

אז מען וועט אויפשניידן די הארץ פון א ליוואק וועט מען טרעפן א צלם, טאמער נישט, נישט געפערליך, איין ליטוואק ווייניגער. אחוץ רבי ברוך בער וואס ער איז קודש קדשים

(Needless to say this is not to degrade C"V the Minchas Eluzer, he was a giant and famous Gadol B'doiroi, known for his sharp words which wasn't always meant to take literally. The holy Shinever Rav was sharp too but nothing of this nature. We should be more careful with this)

Offline joe1234

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3369 on: July 20, 2023, 10:37:21 PM »
I couldn't care less about this guy other than feeling. Sorry for him his behavior described was not normal.

There are people defending him.. making his behavior not soo terrible... Telling us to have pity on his ex wife and kid

#1 those of you who hush these things up, simply serve as enablers

He should have been held accountable long ago.. in the name of his now ex wife, family, kid, community, hashem, the Torah

I'm just amazed at everyone finding justification in a Talmud chacham with semicha cv wearing a cross!!

Greater the man, greater the sin! Jeez...

I curse a lot, but never g-damnit.. can still feel my father's slap "I don't want you cursing.. but never say that word.. " which is

לֹא תִשָּׂא אֶת שֵׁם ה' אֱלֹקיךָ לַשָּׁוְא כִּי לֹא יְנַקֶּה ה' אֵת אֲשֶׁר יִשָּׂא אֶת שְׁמוֹ לַשָּׁוְא

I never look for justification of my behavior, but we need to hold people responsible.. either you are for hashem or Baal

I feel like this is exactly what you guys argued about the lesbian wedding and everyone insisted it was absolute yehareg v'al yaavor..

But now, a cross... Ok not to bad...
1. No one is defending how he behaved but rather putting it in the right perspective. What may be very bothersome, especially to women, is the way it was perceived that he took advantage of these women(debatable) and his wife, and how he lead a double life especially being that he was considered a talmid chochom, which for the most part is symanthics and plain labeling without really understanding the underlying sins according to the Torah. Plenty of people did worse things than him according to the Torah. For example, Molesting, znus with a jewish married woman...(dont forget about talking in shul...). As terrible as what he did was, it seems that he's still considered a mumar leteiavon. He obviously was embarrased by his misdeeds and therefore tried to hide this from his community. This pales in comparison to a Lesbian wedding done "beshita", in broad daylight for all to see, which renders them an Apikores, and they lose thie share in the world to come.

2. Everyone knows about this by now, so it's not about hushing but rather about giving his family some peace in this already difficult situation, and maybe even giving him a chance for repentance(gasp!). His life is already ruined at the maximum level, so there is no enabling here...

3. I would suggest you get yourself a "competent Rav" to speak over all your halachik and hashkafik questions. I don't know if you currently have one, but it maybe time for a new one (I hope you don't mind my constructive criticism).

4. RELAX!
« Last Edit: July 20, 2023, 10:49:09 PM by joe1234 »

Offline Lurker

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3370 on: July 20, 2023, 10:38:28 PM »
It has a place because there are lessons to be learned for us.
It also important for others to know that they can't sin in such a manner and expect it to be covered up.
Collateral damage to children is always unfortunate, but that's on the sinner, not on the people learning valuable lessons.

No one with a desire to do what this guy did is going to not do it because he learned that people will bash him on DDF. If this conversation was at all constructive, you may have a point. Nothing of value has been said here, though.
Failing at maintaining Lurker status.

Offline imayid2

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3371 on: July 20, 2023, 10:39:52 PM »
Nothing of value has been said here, though.
I disagree though your post is an exception ;)

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3372 on: July 20, 2023, 10:49:48 PM »
No one with a desire to do what this guy did is going to not do it because he learned that people will bash him on DDF.
It's not just DDF. It's a question of whether we as a community will allow for cover-ups of this magnitude or not.
Shaming is certainly a deterrent for some potential sinners. A molester is going to think twice if they realize that his life will be ruined over it instead of being covered up.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline YitzyS

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3373 on: July 20, 2023, 10:53:43 PM »
It has a place because there are lessons to be learned for us.
It also important for others to know that they can't sin in such a manner and expect it to be covered up.
Collateral damage to children is always unfortunate, but that's on the sinner, not on the people learning valuable lessons.
As per the conversations in the Lashon Harah Le'toeles thread, I don't know why this is allowable. There is no imminent threat to anyone. As for "Le'maan Yishmi'u Viyira'u", I think that this specific case is unique from the other recent cases in that there is a much smaller potential here. As Lurker said,
No one with a desire to do what this guy did is going to not do it because he learned that people will bash him on DDF. If this conversation was at all constructive, you may have a point. Nothing of value has been said here, though.

At the very least, I think this is a bone fide shaalah. It's NOT the same as most of the other recent cases that were discussed here.

Offline imayid2

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3374 on: July 20, 2023, 10:57:29 PM »
As per the conversations in the Lashon Harah Le'toeles thread, I don't know why this is allowable.
Because
he was פורק ממנו עול מלכות שמים לגמרי.

Offline Lurker

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3375 on: July 20, 2023, 10:59:15 PM »
It's not just DDF. It's a question of whether we as a community will allow for cover-ups of this magnitude or not.
Shaming is certainly a deterrent for some potential sinners. A molester is going to think twice if they realize that his life will be ruined over it instead of being covered up.

This isn't that. A danger people need to be aware of is one thing. Something that has nothing to do with us is very different. We all have sins, and none of us want those acts to be discussed here. This guy just had the misfortune to have his sins broadcasted on TikTok and picked up by gossip rags.

As far as toeles, no one who is thinking of doing this is under any illusion that they won't be shamed and shunned if they are caught. They either think they won't get caught or that the risk is worth it. This conversation isn't preventing a single sin, just providing entertainment.

We all have sins, and none of us want those acts to be discussed here.
Failing at maintaining Lurker status.

Offline YitzyS

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3376 on: July 20, 2023, 10:59:27 PM »
Because
But this has an effect on other people as well. They were not פורק ממנו עול מלכות שמים לגמרי

Offline joe1234

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3377 on: July 20, 2023, 10:59:53 PM »
Because
Even if not he was פורק ממנו עול מלכות שמים לגמרי.
האומר דבר בשם אמרו מביא גאולה לעולם.  ;D

Offline chevron

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3378 on: July 20, 2023, 11:01:49 PM »
1. No one is defending how he behaved but rather putting it in the right perspective. What may be very bothersome, especially to women, is the way it was perceived that he took advantage of these women(debatable) and his wife, and how he lead a double life especially being that he was considered a talmid chochom, which for the most part is symanthics and plain labeling without really understanding the underlying sins according to the Torah. Plenty of people did worse things than him according to the Torah. For example, Molesting, znus with a jewish married woman...(dont forget about talking in shul...). As terrible as what he did was, it seems that he's still considered a mumar leteiavon. He obviously was embarrased by his misdeeds and therefore tried to hide this from his community. This pales in comparison to a Lesbian wedding done "beshita", in broad daylight for all to see, which renders them an Apikores, and they lose thie share in the world to come.

2. Everyone knows about this by now, so it's not about hushing but rather about giving his family some peace in this already difficult situation, and maybe even giving him a chance for repentance(gasp!). His life is already ruined at the maximum level, so there is no enabling here...

3. I would suggest you get yourself a "competent Rav" to speak over all your halachik and hashkafik questions. I don't know if you currently have one, but it maybe time for a new one (I hope you don't mind my constructive criticism).

4. RELAX!

Mostly ignored is the women hurt here bc hey they aren't Jewish..

Trayf and chilul shabbas are porek ok in this sense of being a musmach and acting that way .

DDF commenters pointed out that Jackie mason was a musmach of Rav Moshe.. but Jackie didn't lead a double life

Your line #3 is the most ironic.. my entire issue is about one who soils the rabbanus

Where did he get semicha ? Was it revoked ?

A lot of people talked badly about Rabbi meir kahane but his semicha was never revoked

"Kahane's formal education included Yeshiva of Flatbush for elementary school and Brooklyn Talmudical Academy for high school.[20] Kahane received his rabbinical ordination from the Mir Yeshiva in Brooklyn, where he was especially admired by the head Rabbi Abraham Kalmanowitz.[21] He was fully conversant in the Tanakh (Jewish Bible), the Talmud, the Midrash and Jewish law. Subsequently, Kahane earned a B.A. in political science from Brooklyn College in 1954, a Bachelor of Law Ė LL.B. from New York Law School, and an M.A. in International Relations from New York University.[22][1]"

I admire Rav Meir kahane and certainly we can say he was a mumar  l'taiavon

It's sad to watch our leaders fall and fail but the Torah doesn't hush it up..  it's advertised

Offline imayid2

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #3379 on: July 20, 2023, 11:02:12 PM »
But this has an effect on other people as well. They were not פורק ממנו עול מלכות שמים לגמרי
It always does. Yet the CC doesnít seem to think itís a problem.