Author Topic: The Future of Lakewood  (Read 559565 times)

Offline JMHO

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4100 on: November 16, 2023, 09:45:17 AM »
Question regarding the last bunch of posts, if daas torah says to vote for the candidate, that should be it! Period. If daas torah says go vote, you must. Full stop. If said candidate is pro-development, that must be what daas torah wants.

What am i missing here?
People are just lazy, selfish and dumb.
Most people I speak to have zero interest in voting, not as a thought out position just indefference. They do enjoy complaining, as a sport, not a call to action.

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4101 on: November 16, 2023, 09:50:39 AM »
your missing the part that half of Lakewood is not affiliated with BMG, so while your daas torah says something doesn't mean everyone is bound by it, versus if you come across as helpful for everyone you wouldn't need to use daas torah to get everyone to vote,

if you bring a Brink's truck and say hefker everyone will grab without a kol korah

most of us have similar concerns it shouldn't be that complicated to achieve

Offline avromie7

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4102 on: November 16, 2023, 09:58:10 AM »
Question regarding the last bunch of posts, if daas torah says to vote for the candidate, that should be it! Period. If daas torah says go vote, you must. Full stop. If said candidate is pro-development, that must be what daas torah wants.

What am i missing here?
A bunch of self serving Balei Batim telling some Roshei Yeshiva where their signature is placed is not called "Daas Torah".

If your Rebbi signed on a letter telling you who to vote for, there can be an argument that you need to listen, anyone else is under no obligation to listen.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline knowitall

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4103 on: November 16, 2023, 12:12:13 PM »
First of all, who is the Lakewood Vaad? Do they have names?

Offline JMHO

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4104 on: November 16, 2023, 12:28:57 PM »
First of all, who is the Lakewood Vaad? Do they have names?
Username does NOT check out!

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4105 on: November 16, 2023, 01:12:06 PM »
I think it has to be addressed - Daas Torah unanimously announced that there is a strong obligation and a mitzvah to vote for AS, and despite that, more than 60% of Lakewood did not listen to DT. And TBH I voted for AS because I wanted to vote for him, not because DT told me to do so - I'm sure there are others like me.

When it comes to politics, there's clearly a massive disconnect between DT and the Lakewood community, and that includes people that generally follow DT. Look at the Lakewood turnout for the Israel rally, Lakewood listened to DT and very few showed up.

There has to be some introspection. What is DT worth if most of the community is not going to listen? Every time there is a public unacceptance of DT, it erodes their credibility and impacts what DT can accomplish. Not to take away from their level, but it's like a rabbi without students; he is not a rebbe.

I think a new path should be explored - whether its having an open dialogue with the community to learn what people care about, providing compelling reasons to vote instead of relying on an appeal to authority, or perhaps even getting out of politics.
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Offline JMHO

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4106 on: November 16, 2023, 01:35:40 PM »
When it comes to politics, there's clearly a massive disconnect between DT and the Lakewood community, and that includes people that generally follow DT. Look at the Lakewood turnout for the Israel rally, Lakewood listened to DT and very few showed up.

There has to be some introspection. What is DT worth if most of the community is not going to listen? Every time there is a public unacceptance of DT, it erodes their credibility and impacts what DT can accomplish. Not to take away from their level, but it's like a rabbi without students; he is not a rebbe.
Maybe the problem is with Lakewood and not DT?

Offline iwlw2

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4107 on: November 16, 2023, 01:37:54 PM »
or perhaps even getting out of politics.
+1000 politics in its essence is a really dirty business, while I would very much like the powerbrokers and politicians themselves to honestly and consistently listen and follow Daas Torah, there is no need to sully Rabbonnim and Roshei Yeshiva by having them publicly involved like celebrity endorsements (lehavdil).

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4108 on: November 16, 2023, 01:58:48 PM »
Maybe the problem is with Lakewood and not DT?

That very well can be true, yet even so, if DT believes in the importance of winning elections (they clearly do), they should be seeking more than 35% support. They need to be tailoring their DT to the community at large - and it can be accomplished without compromising on their hashkafos.
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Offline avromie7

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4109 on: November 16, 2023, 02:16:31 PM »
That very well can be true, yet even so, if DT believes in the importance of winning elections (they clearly do), they should be seeking more than 35% support. They need to be tailoring their DT to the community at large - and it can be accomplished without compromising on their hashkafos.
They should start by being uninvolved in local politics. We don't want or need a letter signed by RY telling us to vote for the interests of well connected people.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline MoYS

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4110 on: November 16, 2023, 02:50:50 PM »
There's a lot of back and forth about daas torah

I once saw an article that said the following: If Daas Torah says something, e.g. don't eat a certain produce or don't wear a certain shetiel, and nobody listens, Daas Torah doesn't lose, you lose. Because it's not DT job to make people do something, it's there job to tell people (who care for their daas) what is right and what is wrong. (end of said article)

Now the issue comes up when Daas Torah tells you to do something that can affect positive outcome on a community, e.g. go vote. It is unlike any other DT proclomation because not listening causes DT to "lose". It puts those that are DT in a vulnerable situation because there is potential for their desired outcome to not be acheived. But what are they to do if not take the risk if they truly believe something. Should they back out?

If you honestly believe that the Rabbonim were either hoodwinked or otherwise convinced to endorse someone. Or perhaps they signed a paper because someone asked them to and they don't really care either way. Then it's your job to ask your Rav. Go ahead and doubt signs and robo-calls, but make it your business to do what's right.

I personally asked my own Rav because, like many people here, I don't believe signs.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2023, 02:56:03 PM by MoYS »

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4111 on: November 16, 2023, 03:00:11 PM »
Now the issue comes up when Daas Torah tells you to do something that can affect positive outcome on a community, e.g. go vote. It is unlike any other DT proclomation because not listening causes DT to "lose". It puts those that are DT in a vulnerable situation because there is potential for their desired outcome to not be acheived. But what are they to do if not take the risk if they truly believe something. Should they back out?

I think a new path should be explored - whether its having an open dialogue with the community to learn what people care about, providing compelling reasons to vote instead of relying on an appeal to authority, or perhaps even getting out of politics.
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Offline whacked1

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4112 on: November 16, 2023, 03:04:32 PM »
A bunch of self serving Balei Batim telling some Roshei Yeshiva where their signature is placed is not called "Daas Torah".

If your Rebbi signed on a letter telling you who to vote for, there can be an argument that you need to listen, anyone else is under no obligation to listen.
Question, if said Roshei Yeshiva then put out a kol koreih about something else that may or may not have a self-serving aspect to it, I'm assuming we dont consider them Daas Torah either, correct?

Offline MoYS

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4113 on: November 16, 2023, 03:05:42 PM »

I can't say I agree. I don't think Daas Torah needs to have open dialogue. They can if they want, but they don't need to. That's why I said to find your own Rav.

I do agree regarding askanim and community leaders, but that's not going to happen.

Edit: I should add that I found a Rav with whom I can have open dialouge. But again, its all on his terms.

Offline avromie7

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4114 on: November 16, 2023, 03:15:47 PM »
Question, if said Roshei Yeshiva then put out a kol koreih about something else that may or may not have a self-serving aspect to it, I'm assuming we dont consider them Daas Torah either, correct?
I listen to my Rebbi. I don't need to listen to every kol koreh put out by every Rabbi.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline knowitall

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4115 on: November 16, 2023, 03:16:48 PM »
There's a lot of back and forth about daas torah

I once saw an article that said the following: If Daas Torah says something, e.g. don't eat a certain produce or don't wear a certain shetiel, and nobody listens, Daas Torah doesn't lose, you lose. Because it's not DT job to make people do something, it's there job to tell people (who care for their daas) what is right and what is wrong. (end of said article)

Now the issue comes up when Daas Torah tells you to do something that can affect positive outcome on a community, e.g. go vote. It is unlike any other DT proclomation because not listening causes DT to "lose". It puts those that are DT in a vulnerable situation because there is potential for their desired outcome to not be acheived. But what are they to do if not take the risk if they truly believe something. Should they back out?

If you honestly believe that the Rabbonim were either hoodwinked or otherwise convinced to endorse someone. Or perhaps they signed a paper because someone asked them to and they don't really care either way. Then it's your job to ask your Rav. Go ahead and doubt signs and robo-calls, but make it your business to do what's right.

I personally asked my own Rav because, like many people here, I don't believe signs.
An anonymous “Vaad” is not Daas Torah.
Daas Torah is a Rav, with a name, who you can have a dialogue with. The Lakewood Vaad doesn’t fit that description.

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4116 on: November 16, 2023, 03:20:38 PM »
I'll share with you my daaas torah, I met my ruv by the polling booth on election day, so I asked him what are you doing here, he responds "mitzvas hayom, helping others", so I asked him who should I vote for, he responded "he didn't see it being discussed in shulchan aruch"

ok so thats my daas torah
you can have yours i can have mine,

they made an event pre-election for AS I was sure he would be there or at least discuss why we should vote for him, i went and all i heard was "you gotta head the call of daas torah, you think you're smarter who are you?" i left the event pissed

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4117 on: November 16, 2023, 03:22:06 PM »
An anonymous “Vaad” is not Daas Torah.
Daas Torah is a Rav, with a name, who you can have a dialogue with. The Lakewood Vaad doesn’t fit that description.

They are not anonymous.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline knowitall

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4118 on: November 16, 2023, 03:37:42 PM »
They are not anonymous.
What are the names of the Rabbanim? I asked upthread and didn’t get a response.
I googled it and the Vaad endorsements I saw had no names on them.

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4119 on: November 16, 2023, 04:11:23 PM »
First of all, who is the Lakewood Vaad? Do they have names?
This is an old list. IINM, some of these people are no longer affiliated, but I'm not sure if anyone new was added. The main decision makers now AFAIK are Rabbi Weisberg and Reb Benny Heinemann.

https://thelakewoodscoop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Vaad-members-at-a-glance.pdf