Author Topic: Laining/Baalei Kria  (Read 35119 times)

Offline @Yehuda

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Re: Laining/Baalei Kria
« Reply #40 on: January 05, 2016, 11:05:39 AM »
Do you mean to put the 'th' (as in 'this') in the front (ie thaled)? That's what the Shema example would imply.

Was this teacher Yemenite by any chance? That's how they pronounce it. Plus they do 'j' for גּ, 'th' (as in 'thick') for ת - see the wikipedia for other differences.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yemenite_Hebrew#Distinguishing_Features
Yes, I meant that. Thanks.
Nope, he's not.

Offline good sam

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Re: Laining/Baalei Kria
« Reply #41 on: January 05, 2016, 11:11:25 AM »
I had a teimani friend who would stretch it out that way. Echuthhhh
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Offline joeberg

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Re: Laining/Baalei Kria
« Reply #42 on: January 05, 2016, 06:17:58 PM »
I think R' Yaakov Kaminetzky held that way.

Offline Work-for-ur-muny

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Re: Laining/Baalei Kria
« Reply #43 on: January 05, 2016, 06:19:44 PM »
I think R' Yaakov Kaminetzky held that way.
He was known for a big baal medayek.

Offline MendelG

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Re: Laining/Baalei Kria
« Reply #44 on: January 05, 2016, 06:32:54 PM »
Last year I lained in a half teimani half chabad shul and although I did notice the jimmel I don't remember any daleth. Where exactly is the dialect from?

Online gozalim

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Re: Laining/Baalei Kria
« Reply #45 on: January 05, 2016, 07:10:07 PM »
@MendelG
Is the Chabad preference for חומש תורה תמימה (for nusach diyukim etc.) also from your grandfather?

Offline MendelG

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Re: Laining/Baalei Kria
« Reply #46 on: January 05, 2016, 07:22:54 PM »
@MendelG
Is the Chabad preference for חומש תורה תמימה (for nusach diyukim etc.) also from your grandfather?
A very good question. AFAIK it comes from the fact that the Rebbe would use it every shabbos to follow along in as well as by the fabrengen when he would explain rashi. If anyone knows  more info please share. (We are referring to the old print of the chumash, the new print doesn't have the same diyukim).

Offline yochiek93

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Re: Laining/Baalei Kria
« Reply #47 on: January 05, 2016, 07:35:33 PM »
Last year I lained in a half teimani half chabad shul and although I did notice the jimmel I don't remember any daleth. Where exactly is the dialect from?
It is a teimani thing

Offline gubevo18

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Re: Laining/Baalei Kria
« Reply #48 on: January 05, 2016, 08:21:40 PM »
I think R' Yaakov Kaminetzky held that way.
+1 I've heard the same and yes he was know to be a big Baal medakdek

Offline MeirS

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Re: Laining/Baalei Kria
« Reply #49 on: January 05, 2016, 09:55:51 PM »
A very good question. AFAIK it comes from the fact that the Rebbe would use it every shabbos to follow along in as well as by the fabrengen when he would explain rashi. If anyone knows  more info please share. (We are referring to the old print of the chumash, the new print doesn't have the same diyukim).
The Torah Temimah chumash is known for its great Diyuk in Ta'amim and Nikud.
I believe that's why it's used as the deciding chumash in many shuls including Chabad. In addition to that, it's also the Chumash that the Lubavitcher Rebbe used.

Offline Iz

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Re: Laining/Baalei Kria
« Reply #50 on: January 05, 2016, 10:00:35 PM »
The most interesting thing my teacher taught us was how he believes a Daled without a Dagesh should be pronounced - "Daleth". His support was quite intriguing. Everyone knows that Rashi says by Shema that the Daled of Echad should be stretched out. Yet, there's no way to really stretch it without ending up saying "Echaaaaad" (which isn't stretching the actual Daled, but rather the Patach of the Ches) or "Echadah" (which is really like adding an extra letter after the Daled." However, if you pronounce the Daled as "Daleth," then you can say "Echathhhhh" as that is a sound that can be stretched. Perhaps that's how Rashi pronounced his Daleds and that's what he meant. Thought it was really interesting.
Also: ועבדתם, ואבדתם, ולמדתם.

Offline emak

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Re: Laining/Baalei Kria
« Reply #51 on: January 05, 2016, 10:51:10 PM »
The most interesting thing my teacher taught us was how he believes a Daled without a Dagesh should be pronounced - "Daleth". His support was quite intriguing. Everyone knows that the Gemara says by Shema that the Daled of Echad should be stretched out. Yet, there's no way to really stretch it without ending up saying "Echaaaaad" (which isn't stretching the actual Daled, but rather the Patach of the Ches) or "Echadah" (which is really like adding an extra letter after the Daled." However, if you pronounce the Daled as "Daleth," then you can say "Echathhhhh" as that is a sound that can be stretched. Perhaps that's how the Gemara pronounced his Daleds and that's what he meant. Thought it was really interesting.
FTFY

Offline @Yehuda

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Re: Laining/Baalei Kria
« Reply #52 on: January 06, 2016, 11:00:16 AM »
Would have helped if you bolded what was fixed. Figured it out. Gemara.

Offline Work-for-ur-muny

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Re: Laining/Baalei Kria
« Reply #53 on: January 06, 2016, 01:42:14 PM »
+1 I've heard the same and yes he was know to be a big Baal medakdek
Someone told me that he actually renamed a trop because the the name is a contradiction to the trop. Very interesting and true, but not generally accepted, though.

Offline Iz

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Re: Laining/Baalei Kria
« Reply #54 on: January 06, 2016, 01:49:01 PM »
Someone told me that he actually renamed a trop because the the name is a contradiction to the trop. Very interesting and true, but not generally accepted, though.
Details, please?

Offline Work-for-ur-muny

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Re: Laining/Baalei Kria
« Reply #55 on: January 06, 2016, 02:42:35 PM »
Details, please?
The trop "yesiv" is always found on single-syllable words only. Additionally, the yesiv trop is written before the first letter of the (single-syllable) word. Also, every trop is appears in the taamei hamikra exactly the way it should be leined i.e. mil'el vs. milra etc. The only thing that doesn't match up is the name of the yesiv is a two-syllable word with the trop appearing between the two syllables which contradicts the actual trop.

R' Yaakov ZL therefore suggested that the actual name should be "tiv (siv)" with the trop appearing beforehand.

Offline Iz

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Re: Laining/Baalei Kria
« Reply #56 on: January 06, 2016, 02:46:56 PM »
The trop "yesiv" is always found on single-syllable words only. Additionally, the yesiv trop is written before the first letter of the (single-syllable) word. Also, every trop is appears in the taamei hamikra exactly the way it should be leined i.e. mil'el vs. milra etc. The only thing that doesn't match up is the name of the yesiv is a two-syllable word with the trop appearing between the two syllables which contradicts the actual trop.

R' Yaakov ZL therefore suggested that the actual name should be "tiv (siv)" with the trop appearing beforehand.
Thanks.

Offline lechatchileh ariber

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Re: Laining/Baalei Kria
« Reply #57 on: January 06, 2016, 03:34:40 PM »
@MendelG
Is the Chabad preference for חומש תורה תמימה (for nusach diyukim etc.) also from your grandfather?
I've also heard that the Torah temima follows the Russian minhag as to all the shinuyim.
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Offline avremie

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Re: Laining/Baalei Kria
« Reply #58 on: January 06, 2016, 06:37:34 PM »
The trop "yesiv" is always found on single-syllable words only. Additionally, the yesiv trop is written before the first letter of the (single-syllable) word. Also, every trop is appears in the taamei hamikra exactly the way it should be leined i.e. mil'el vs. milra etc. The only thing that doesn't match up is the name of the yesiv is a two-syllable word with the trop appearing between the two syllables which contradicts the actual trop.

R' Yaakov ZL therefore suggested that the actual name should be "tiv (siv)" with the trop appearing beforehand.
Since when is a shva a syllable?

Offline george

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Re: Laining/Baalei Kria
« Reply #59 on: January 06, 2016, 06:38:38 PM »
The trop "yesiv" is always found on single-syllable words only. Additionally, the yesiv trop is written before the first letter of the (single-syllable) word. Also, every trop is appears in the taamei hamikra exactly the way it should be leined i.e. mil'el vs. milra etc. The only thing that doesn't match up is the name of the yesiv is a two-syllable word with the trop appearing between the two syllables which contradicts the actual trop.

R' Yaakov ZL therefore suggested that the actual name should be "tiv (siv)" with the trop appearing beforehand.
Any baal medakdek will tell you that a shva - nah OR nach - is never its own syllable. Shva is always part of the syllable before it or after it. Shva nach ends all syllables (nach niglah or nach nistar) and shva nah is always at the beginning of a new syllable.
I'm not questioning R' Yaakov Kamenetzky's credentials ch'v, I'm just pointing out a fact that contradicts what you wrote in his name.