Author Topic: The Official Complain Thread Against The Local Heimishe Jewish Owned Stores  (Read 9240 times)

Offline Freddie

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While some hechsherim are good for some and not for othrs, there are hechsherim out there run by conservative rabbis with no regard to Halacha. The restaurants proudly display signs with hebrew letters and the 'hechshers' websites are full of hebrew writing that can fool someone unfamiliar with it.

So a business that has no regard for yore deia you can speak lashon hara about but a business who has no regard for choshen mishpat you can't?

Offline chaimmayer

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All you concerned about lashon hara:
Please promise me that you will never read a Yelp or Tripadvisor review. It is just full of Lashan Hara!
I will allow you to enjoy your miserable customer experience while I read all the lashon hara on the shop you just regret visiting. I will then take my business elsewhere and enjoy my experience.
I'm sure you didn't read the article I posted because you posted only two minutes after me but one of the things he says is the difference between something which is purely for toeles and a thread that anyone might read.

Going to yelp because you want to know ink which is נוגע למעשה is very different.

Offline yuneeq

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Would it be fine to complain about ridiculous store policies?
If so, let the thread be about about that.
Leave out the stories about bad service and price gouging.
Visibly Jewish

Offline dudi

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I think this thread can serve a great purpose if it's done right.
(Especially that the chances are that the store owner or one of his family and or friends are on this forum).
So instead of turning this thread into to a shmiras haloshon book why don't you make it a "letoieles" by calling it "stores you should only use amex in (ask your LOR before opening)" and we can get some good use out of it.

Offline ilherman

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I'm sure you didn't read the article I posted because you posted only two minutes after me but one of the things he says is the difference between something which is purely for toeles and a thread that anyone might read.

Going to yelp because you want to know ink which is נוגע למעשה is very different.
Ever read a Yelp page.... Im sure you did.. I want this thread to be a Yelp page. I Chas Veshulem don't wanna talk on personal people etc I just want T'oeles. And moreover I was hoping in my case that somene from G&G is on here and will realize that this is bad customer service and do something. Well, as of not my brother is going around with non matching pants and jacket  8)
I think this thread can serve a great purpose if it's done right.
(Especially that the chances are that the store owner or one of his family and or friends are on this forum).
So instead of turning this thread into to a shmiras haloshon book why don't you make it a "letoieles" by calling it "stores you should only use amex in (ask your LOR before opening)" and we can get some good use out of it.
Exactly.

Would it be fine to complain about ridiculous store policies?
If so, let the thread be about about that.
Leave out the stories about bad service and price gouging.
For the Lashan Hara people what would that make a difference? Bad service is generally also a store policy, so is price gauging before the Chagim. And you remind me another story where my wife got a sweater for my so for Yontif for $60 from some Heinishe company and after Yontif it was full pimples and when my wife went back to the store they gave her this huge eyes "You are the only one with this complain, it makes no sesne. We can not help you"

The point of the thread was also to be Dan Lekaf Zechus why people buy in Macys rather than local stores. Of course some stores are nice, I am talking about the other stores....
You can say what you think when you think what you say.

Offline EJB

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I'm not a buki in this but is there a toyeles?
Is someone going to/not going to shop there because of what people say here in the forums?
If your not sure if its LH or not, do you want to take the chance?

To the contrary, an argument can be made that he's michayev to report on his experience due to v'ahavta lireiacha. Is there really an issue of lashon hara regarding business practices? This is the first I've heard of it. And yes, people might decide to not shop at a heimish store because of poor customer service reports. That's not a bad thing.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2016, 10:02:01 AM by EJB »

Offline akivak

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To the contrary, an argument can be made that he's michayev to report on his experience due to v'ahavta lireiacha. Is there really an issue of lashon hara regarding business practices? This is the first I've heard of it. And yes, people might decide to not shop at a heimish store because of poor customer service reports. That's not a bad thing.
May be true, but in the g&g case for example they might have in general decent customer service, but since there durning a sale they simply don't have the time to deal with the customers properly. I've never shopped there, and don't plan on, but for the reason of veahavta lireyacha, this might not be nogeya

Offline ilherman

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Don't get me started on G&G....
May be true, but in the g&g case for example they might have in general decent customer service, but since there durning a sale they simply don't have the time to deal with the customers properly. I've never shopped there, and don't plan on, but for the reason of veahavta lireyacha, this might not be nogeya
You can say what you think when you think what you say.

Offline EJB

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May be true, but in the g&g case for example they might have in general decent customer service, but since there durning a sale they simply don't have the time to deal with the customers properly.

That's not "decent customer service." 

Offline Hershelsdeals

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Reviewing a Heimishe company is 100% Loshen Hara, the only way it won't be LH is if the particular business is actually stealing.

Bad customer service experience is totally relative.

For example, if I owned a restaurant , and had a couple of waiters,  now you have a nasty customer, (admit, there are plenty of those) demanding a refund because the steak he ordered came out not the way he wanted, now this guy gets all nasty at the waiter which triggers the waiter ( which is only one out of a few) to respond a bit unprofessionally.

Now this guy thinks he'll get even with the Restaurant (Ltoeles hatziber) and post about it in this thread.

Who is he hurting, the non Jewish waiter, or the Jewish owned Restaurant?
« Last Edit: January 19, 2016, 11:34:33 AM by Hershelsdeals »

Offline Phase IV

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Reviewing a Heimishe company is 100% Loshen Hara, the only way it won't be LH is if the particular business is actually stealing.

Bad customer service experience is totally relative.

For example, if I owned a restaurant , and had a couple of waiters,  now you have a nasty customer, (admit, there are plenty of those) demanding a refund because the steak he ordered came out not the way he wanted, now this guy gets all nasty at the waiter which triggers the waiter ( which is only one out of a few) to respond a bit unprofessionally.

Now this guy thinks he'll get even with the Restaurant (Ltoeles hatziber) and post about it in this thread.

Who is he hurting, the non Jewish waiter, or the Jewish owned Restaurant?

Well Said! What a refreshing post!

Offline EJB

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Reviewing a Heimishe company is 100% Loshen Hara, the only way it won't be LH is if the particular business is actually stealing.

Bad customer service experience is totally relative.

For example, if I owned a restaurant , and had a couple of waiters,  now you have a nasty customer, (admit, there are plenty of those) demanding a refund because the steak he ordered came out not the way he wanted, now this guy gets all nasty at the waiter which triggers the waiter ( which is only one out of a few) to respond a bit unprofessionally.

Now this guy thinks he'll get even with the Restaurant (Ltoeles hatziber) and post about it in this thread.

Who is he hurting, the non Jewish waiter, or the Jewish owned Restaurant?

-1. Obviously, the review needs to be as objective and tone neutral as possible. But the entire purpose of an objective review is l'toeles. It's not only gneiva that prospective customers care about; they also care about other factors such as service. If you personally only care that the heimeshe places don't steal your money, then you can ignore the reviews that complain about poor customer service. But when I make a decision to shop at a particular store, I'd like to be as confident as possible that the store will treat me well as a customer.

Offline Hershelsdeals

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-1. Obviously, the review needs to be as objective and tone neutral as possible. But the entire purpose of an objective review is l'toeles. It's not only gneiva that prospective customers care about; they also care about other factors such as service. If you personally only care that the heimeshe places don't steal your money, then you can ignore the reviews that complain about poor customer service. But when I make a decision to shop at a particular store, I'd like to be as confident as possible that the store will treat me well as a customer.
You haven't learned Hilchos LH.

Even to talk positively about a person is forbidden.

As objective as you can try to be, you're still opening a can of worms

 אסור לדבר בשבחו של אדם בפני שונאיו, שבזה גורם להם שיספרו בגנותו.
אסור להרבות לספר בשבחו של אדם אפילו שלא בפני שונאיו, שכאשר מרבה בדברים ונראה לשומעים שהגזים בשבחו הם מתקנים אותו על ידי ספור גנותו להראות למספר שאינו מושלם כל כך כמו שתאר, וכן המספר עצמו עלול כאשר הוא מרגיש שהפריז בשבח חבירו לסייג קצת את דבריו ולהזכיר גם את גנותו.

Offline EJB

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You haven't learned Hilchos LH.

Even to talk positively about a person is forbidden.

As objective as you can try to be, you're still opening a can of worms

 אסור לדבר בשבחו של אדם בפני שונאיו, שבזה גורם להם שיספרו בגנותו.
אסור להרבות לספר בשבחו של אדם אפילו שלא בפני שונאיו, שכאשר מרבה בדברים ונראה לשומעים שהגזים בשבחו הם מתקנים אותו על ידי ספור גנותו להראות למספר שאינו מושלם כל כך כמו שתאר, וכן המספר עצמו עלול כאשר הוא מרגיש שהפריז בשבח חבירו לסייג קצת את דבריו ולהזכיר גם את גנותו.


Thanks, The quote you brought does not support your position that there are (virtually) no circumstances other than theft that it is permitted to talk negatively about a Jewish business. Obviously it is important to be careful, but sometimes staying quiet (as to not open "a can of worms") is worse than objectively voicing your experience, if there is a risk that others will have similar poor experiences.

Offline Hershelsdeals

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Thanks, The quote you brought does not support your position that there are (virtually) no circumstances other than theft that it is permitted to talk negatively about a Jewish business. Obviously it is important to be careful, but sometimes staying quiet (as to not open "a can of worms") is worse than objectively voicing your experience, if there is a risk that others will have similar poor experiences.
Who would exchange a possible poor experience for Olom Habah?

Offline EJB

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The Official Complain Thread Against The Local Heimishe Jewish Owned Stores
« Reply #35 on: January 19, 2016, 12:59:02 PM »
Who would exchange a possible poor experience for Olom Habah?

No, but I also wouldn't exchange keeping quiet  for Olom Habah. You may think it's easier to stay quiet on sensitive issues such as shidduchim, job references, and business practices. But if you're mechuyav to speak up, staying quiet is wrong.

I'm not saying this is the best forum to speak up; I personally don't think it is. Nor am I saying that one should always speak up. But I do think there is a time and place to voice even customer service complains about heimishe stores.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2016, 01:20:30 PM by EJB »

Offline Hershelsdeals

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No, but I also wouldn't keep quiet  in exchange for Olom Habah.

That says it all.


Offline EJB

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Offline Malachi

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No, but I also wouldn't exchange keeping quiet  for Olom Habah. You may think it's easier to stay quiet on sensitive issues such as shidduchim, job references, and business practices. But if you're mechuyav to speak up, staying quiet is wrong.

I'm not saying this is the best forum to speak up; I personally don't think it is. Nor am I saying that one should always speak up. But I do think there is a time and place to voice even customer service complains about heimishe stores.
complains in a general way, yes. But to call a out a specific store is wrong IMO.
Denny Crane

Offline EJB

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complains in a general way, yes. But to call a out a specific store is wrong IMO.

I'll give you a real example that happened to my parents:

If a store assures you that you were purchasing a refrigerator with a shabbos mode ships you one that does not (some serial numbers of that model have one while others don't), and refuses to take it back when you realize this due to being a mere "middleman,"  you don't think that store should be called out specifically so other potential buyers are forewarned?