Author Topic: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes  (Read 234937 times)

Offline Aaaron

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #220 on: May 12, 2016, 08:22:19 PM »
I watched the video. No sexual abuse.

The video clearly shows a weird, loving, physical, act of satmar chinuch.

For non chassidim, who are not used to such an emotionally engaged chinuch, this can seem so strange that it must be something criminal or sexual..
For me, I just shook my head.

What about non-sexual abuse?

Offline Yehuda25

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #221 on: May 12, 2016, 08:47:45 PM »
I watched the video. No sexual abuse.

The video clearly shows a weird, loving, physical, act of satmar chinuch.

For non chassidim, who are not used to such an emotionally engaged chinuch, this can seem so strange that it must be something criminal or sexual..
For me, I just shook my head.
IDK, looks criminal to me...
“To avoid criticism say nothing, do nothing, be nothing.”


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Offline CS1

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #222 on: May 12, 2016, 09:25:54 PM »
"Culture" isn't a good defense in court. They might think it's normal, but if the court believes evidence demonstrates abuse (you think it doesn't, others think it does), the fact that it's a "normal satmar behavior" is a reason to investigate more of their schools.

regardless if they think it's normal, and regardless if an adult wants to show love by constant kissing while restrained in a room alone for 15+ minutes, this is not something that the child wants. Nor is it something that is correct for a non-relative or someone in an authority position.
If their school is not yet aware that this is not helpful or loving to the child and/or positive for the child's future, then this is a good time for them to be aware of this.
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Offline ilherman

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #223 on: May 12, 2016, 09:34:11 PM »
For THIS SPECIFIC principal it is a normal behaviour. He is the MOST LOVING person on earth, he talks to a 3 year old with the MOST UTMOST respect and love, whenever he talks you can see the love in his eyes, you need to know him to understand what I am talking about, and NO I am NOT his talmud, I just observed him many times, and I admire this person tremendously, so I don't care what you see on the video....It is NOT the full context, you need to actually hear what he is saying to the child.... That alone, that this loyal principal has 40 years of chinuch under his belt and he has a ZERO complaint record and they keep him on his post eventhough he does NOT adhere fully to the Aroiny fraction speaks for itself.

All those haters, keep on hating, nothing will change your minds!
Not saying that this is the case here, but usually the people who are into love are the people who end up having inappropriate behaviors...

In any case, you watched the video? It seems very clear what he is doing with the kid back and forth...  :-X
You can say what you think when you think what you say.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #224 on: May 12, 2016, 09:58:42 PM »
regardless if they think it's normal, and regardless if an adult wants to show love by constant kissing while restrained in a room alone for 15+ minutes, this is not something that the child wants. Nor is it something that is correct for a non-relative or someone in an authority position.
If their school is not yet aware that this is not helpful or loving to the child and/or positive for the child's future, then this is a good time for them to be aware of this.
What about non-sexual abuse?

One mans chinuch is another mans abuse.

It doesn't matter if you are horrified by the chinuch methods or not. It also doesn't matter if you believe the child was uncomfortable or not. Trust me, I have seen children in much much more uncomfortable situations in the hands of authority in my days.... (non sexual)

There was absolutely nothing sexual about the whole episode.  - If you don't like the chinuch at UTA you can send your kids elsewhere.

Offline Yehuda25

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #225 on: May 12, 2016, 10:01:32 PM »
One mans chinuch is another mans abuse.

It doesn't matter if you are horrified by the chinuch methods or not. It also doesn't matter if you believe the child was uncomfortable or not. Trust me, I have seen children in much much more uncomfortable situations in the hands of authority in my days.... (non sexual)

There was absolutely nothing sexual about the whole episode.  - If you don't like the chinuch at UTA you can send your kids elsewhere.
Unless i've gone bonkers, that video in no way can be defined as chinuch, sex-ed perhaps? ::) ::)
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Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #226 on: May 12, 2016, 10:04:03 PM »
Unless i've gone bonkers, that video in no way can be defined as chinuch, sex-ed perhaps? ::) ::)
I watched the video. No sexual abuse.

The video clearly shows a weird, loving, physical, act of satmar chinuch.

For non chassidim, who are not used to such an emotionally engaged chinuch, this can seem so strange that it must be something criminal or sexual..
For me, I just shook my head.

Offline Yehuda25

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #227 on: May 12, 2016, 10:07:26 PM »

I hear ya,but something tells me the prosecutor won't agree with you...
“To avoid criticism say nothing, do nothing, be nothing.”


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Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #228 on: May 12, 2016, 10:14:45 PM »
I hear ya,but something tells me the prosecutor won't agree with you...
Yeah, but if all they have is this video, and the kid/parents will not cooperate in anyway, there is no case to investigate.

Offline Yehuda25

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #229 on: May 12, 2016, 10:22:07 PM »
Yeah, but if all they have is this video, and the kid/parents will not cooperate in anyway, there is no case to investigate.
Is that true?
“To avoid criticism say nothing, do nothing, be nothing.”


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Offline ad120

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #230 on: May 13, 2016, 01:44:56 AM »
Did you see the videos?  Repeatedly kissing a restrained boy on the face isn't abuse?  Shaking him while he's being held in between the guy's legs for 15 minutes while his arms are immobilized?  Even if it's not sexual abuse, it's seemingly abuse.

Criminal or not, the guy should not be around children, and UTA's letter in response is reprehensible.
I feel like I just vomited after I reading this comment.

Offline ad120

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #231 on: May 13, 2016, 02:03:09 AM »
Is this topic related to the FBI? If not please move it to its own thread.

Offline elit

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #232 on: May 13, 2016, 07:47:02 AM »
One mans chinuch is another mans abuse.

It doesn't matter if you are horrified by the chinuch methods or not. It also doesn't matter if you believe the child was uncomfortable or not. Trust me, I have seen children in much much more uncomfortable situations in the hands of authority in my days.... (non sexual)

There was absolutely nothing sexual about the whole episode.  - If you don't like the chinuch at UTA you can send your kids elsewhere.

Is this like that dress where 2 ppl can look at the same thing and see totally different  things

Offline CS1

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #233 on: May 13, 2016, 08:39:47 AM »

Is this like that dress where 2 ppl can look at the same thing and see totally different  things
-1
No, this is where someone didn't watch the video and is supporting an authority, regardless.

In the 12 min version of the video, where all 12 minutes he is physically restraining the boy against him with his hands and legs, the grown adult authority is also shaking the boy as part of his discipline.
People see that and they may have a variety of opinions of 'this doesn't look right' and 'this is wrong'.
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Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #234 on: May 13, 2016, 09:53:05 AM »
-1
No, this is where someone didn't watch the video and is supporting an authority, regardless.

In the 12 min version of the video, where all 12 minutes he is physically restraining the boy against him with his hands and legs, the grown adult authority is also shaking the boy as part of his discipline.
People see that and they may have a variety of opinions of 'this doesn't look right' and 'this is wrong'.
-1

I watched the whole thing. Holding a child close while disciplining is not child abuse. - Gosh, I wonder what you would say if you saw a video of a good old potch or two; which was basically a daily event when I was in school.

This video is classic satmar mannerisms.

Offline stbaum

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #235 on: May 13, 2016, 10:03:30 AM »
apparently if there was evidence of sexual abuse then sending around the video would be considered distributing child pornography? any evidence of that would go directly to the police and no one would be able to see a thing unless they were directly involved. #justsayin
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Offline Aaaron

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #236 on: May 13, 2016, 10:25:52 AM »
I feel like I just vomited after I reading this comment.

When this is your attitude, I'm not surprised.

I did not watch it.
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Offline CS1

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #237 on: May 13, 2016, 10:28:36 AM »
When this is your attitude, I'm not surprised.

yes, plus this seems to be a common KJ attitude:

...Holding a child close while disciplining is not child abuse. - Gosh, I wonder what you would say if you saw a video of a good old potch or two; which was basically a daily event when I was in school.
This video is classic satmar mannerisms.
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Offline hachover

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #238 on: May 13, 2016, 01:53:44 PM »

Let his community judge him , they are the ones that know him and they are the ones that know the kid.


Criminal behavior is not determined by one's community - it is determined by the Courts. Fartig.
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Offline CS1

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #239 on: May 13, 2016, 02:01:10 PM »
Criminal behavior is not determined by one's community - it is determined by the Courts. Fartig.

good point. We can completely justify R' Epstein's activity/policy in regard to beating men who refused to give a get for several years, however those actions weren't legal.

Wondering what yesterday's UTA investigation produced: http://abc7ny.com/news/agents-search-yeshiva-after-video-shows-boy-held-close-by-principal/1335123/
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