Author Topic: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes  (Read 234857 times)

Offline EJB

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #40 on: March 17, 2016, 11:28:46 AM »
No need to call people names or invoke the profanity gods. I think most people here agree:

Several Jewish communities, including communities in upstate NY, leech government resources at the highest rates in the country. If they are doing anything illegal, they should be stopped and prosecuted, regardless of how learned they are and kadosh their intentions are. Are they doing anything illegal? Let the FBI do its job. Do we hope they turn out innocent? If they are innocent, yes. If they aren't innocent, no.

Offline Aaaron

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #41 on: March 17, 2016, 11:31:43 AM »
Because everyone else's reaction was "Oy. Some people may go to jail. I hope it turns out they were innocent."
Your reaction was "Oy. Some people may not go to jail. I hope they're found guilty."

Comeon... I don't see a single post here that implies: "Oy. Some people may go to jail. I hope it turns out they were innocent."  It certainly wasn't "everyone else's reaction," as you say.

Most of us assume they are guilty, it's unfortunately human nature which is why we need to be given the assei of dan lekav zechus. 


Offline shmoe joe

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #42 on: March 17, 2016, 11:53:46 AM »
When will they learn? Why can't they just work with the system instead of abuse it? Reminds me of cunin, the arrogance is ridiculous
what happened to "innocent on till proven guilty"?? What's all this self hating Jew talk over here??
give some love (likes) to a brother!

Offline Aaaron

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #43 on: March 17, 2016, 12:09:09 PM »
...it simply means that you're a self-hating Jew so it's easy to like anyone else more.

What's all this self hating Jew talk over here??

So now we're never allowed to criticize a Jew or it makes you self-hating?  Grow up, kids.  We're not perfect. 

Offline Venilla

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #44 on: March 17, 2016, 12:22:20 PM »
So now we're never allowed to criticize a Jew or it makes you self-hating?  Grow up, kids.  We're not perfect.
We're definitely not perfect, there's no perfection on this world. But to be happy that a brother will be (or say he should be) prosecuted and his family should lose their leader and go broke, getting married without the father being on the wedding, etc.? It doesn't go into my head... What would one say if it would be his son?

ETA: These drug dealers are getting so much sympathy and understanding... It's a shame.

If we were discussing someone who killed, raped, etc. that's a different thing...
« Last Edit: March 17, 2016, 12:26:41 PM by Venilla »
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Offline mordechain

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #45 on: March 17, 2016, 12:38:26 PM »
Not shocking at all, this was obviously going to happen.

http://forward.com/news/175087/orthodox-town-of-lakewood-grabs-bigger-computer-su/#todayilearned|thenewyorkgod

https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/3f0pir/
If you read the actual article, they aren't alleging fraud at all. Just that the circumstances of Lakewood's yeshivas make running networks, which are an allowed use of the program, very expensive.
The tone of the article is the real problem.
It's clear that they'd rather the yeshiva community simply not exist.
In essence, the crime is simply being frum.

Offline ShlockDoc

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #46 on: March 17, 2016, 12:41:47 PM »
We're definitely not perfect, there's no perfection on this world. But to be happy that a brother will be (or say he should be) prosecuted and his family should lose their leader and go broke, getting married without the father being on the wedding, etc.? It doesn't go into my head... What would one say if it would be his son?

ETA: These drug dealers are getting so much sympathy and understanding... It's a shame.

If we were discussing someone who killed, raped, etc. that's a different thing...

Nobody is happy about this situation.  And nobody is happy that these people made decisions that will lead to their families being broken up.  I'm being criticized for hoping that they didn't destroy enough evidence to clear them if they are guilty.  Being called a self hating Jew for hoping that people who stole money from taxpayers get punished.  That's absurd.

Offline David Smith

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #47 on: March 17, 2016, 12:49:43 PM »
What's the proportion of tax paid to education benefits by public school parents, and what's the number by private school parents?
Who do you think you are fooling? You think you are going to pull a quick one on your Creator? Good luck with that.
JTZ

Offline Venilla

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #48 on: March 17, 2016, 12:53:41 PM »
Nobody is happy about this situation.  And nobody is happy that these people made decisions that will lead to their families being broken up.  I'm being criticized for hoping that they didn't destroy enough evidence to clear them if they are guilty.  Being called a self hating Jew for hoping that people who stole money from taxpayers get punished.  That's absurd.

What would one say if it would be his son?

ETA: These drug dealers are getting so much sympathy and understanding... It's a shame.
Disclaimer: I'm in no way calling you or agreeing with those who called you a self hating Jew.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2016, 12:56:58 PM by Venilla »
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Offline shmoe joe

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #49 on: March 17, 2016, 01:04:29 PM »
So now we're never allowed to criticize a Jew or it makes you self-hating?  Grow up, kids.  We're not perfect.
sure you could criticize but wait at least till they're proven guilty!
give some love (likes) to a brother!

Offline chevron

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #50 on: March 17, 2016, 01:28:34 PM »
If you read the actual article, they aren't alleging fraud at all. Just that the circumstances of Lakewood's yeshivas make running networks, which are an allowed use of the program, very expensive.
The tone of the article is the real problem.
It's clear that they'd rather the yeshiva community simply not exist.
In essence, the crime is simply being frum.

WRONG. Besides for fraud, chilul hashem etc.. if guilty, arent the children the victims here ?

Offline David Smith

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #51 on: March 17, 2016, 01:30:42 PM »
WRONG. Besides for fraud, chilul hashem etc.. if guilty, arent the children the victims here ?
Getting raided and arrested is a chillul hashem?
How exactly are the children the victims here?
Who do you think you are fooling? You think you are going to pull a quick one on your Creator? Good luck with that.
JTZ

Offline mordechain

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #52 on: March 17, 2016, 01:49:28 PM »
WRONG. Besides for fraud, chilul hashem etc.. if guilty, arent the children the victims here ?
Did you read the article?
1. Erate is setup to provide funding for communications and computer infrastructure, including networks,phone systems and internet.
2. The most expensive items are wiring and setting up networks. This typically happens at the school board level, with significant cost savings for the individual schools.
3. Private schools are eligible, but since each one is run independently, the costs are high, because there is no economy of scale.
4. Most yeshiva students don't use the internet in class, but their schools certainly do use communication infrastructure. The forward article showed no evidence that erate  funds were not being used for communications infrastructure in Lakewood's schools.
5. The inference was, however, "Gosh, there are so darn many of them that they are eating up all our money, and those awful troglodytes won't even use Google!"

Offline chevron

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #53 on: March 17, 2016, 01:51:48 PM »
Getting raided and arrested is a chillul hashem?
How exactly are the children the victims here?

If they used money intended to teach children computer access, the children were not getting computer access which in itself is hurting them.. but abusing any grant program's, like CC churning, means that in the future they will clamp down, close loopholes, audit more, be more selective etc

Offline chevron

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #54 on: March 17, 2016, 01:52:38 PM »
Did you read the article?
1. Erate is setup to provide funding for communications and computer infrastructure, including networks,phone systems and internet.
2. The most expensive items are wiring and setting up networks. This typically happens at the school board level, with significant cost savings for the individual schools.
3. Private schools are eligible, but since each one is run independently, the costs are high, because there is no economy of scale.
4. Most yeshiva students don't use the internet in class, but their schools certainly do use communication infrastructure. The forward article showed no evidence that erate  funds were not being used for communications infrastructure in Lakewood's schools.
5. The inference was, however, "Gosh, there are so darn many of them that they are eating up all our money, and those awful troglodytes won't even use Google!"

I said "If guilty"

Offline Aaaron

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #55 on: March 17, 2016, 01:56:27 PM »
What's the proportion of tax paid to education benefits by public school parents, and what's the number by private school parents?

It's irrelevant.  Are you really trying to use that as a justification to commit fraud??


Offline David Smith

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #56 on: March 17, 2016, 01:57:35 PM »
From Reddit
Quote
biffnix 7 points 7 months ago*
The thing to remember here is that E-rate does NOT subsidize computers. It's not legal to buy computers for classrooms with e-rate subsidies. They are not an authorized purchase for e-rate funds. The title is EXTREMELY misleading. E-rate funds are used to subsidize connectivity to eligible facilities (K12 schools and public libraries). That means, the data circuits qualify, the core router/switches qualify, and the Internet service itself (ISP contract) qualifies. But NOT classroom computers!
Other hardware qualifies, but only if it's on the eligible services list. Here's how it works:
http://www.sl.universalservice.org/reference/eligserv_framework.asp
You can subsidize telecommunications service (the circuits).
You can subsidize the Internet service itself
You can subsidize internal connections (see link for description)
You can subsidize basic maintenance of eligible equipment
That's it. It is up to INDIVIDUAL DISTRICTS to buy their own computers, mobile devices, or other end user equipment (printers, scanners, projectors, document cameras, etc.). E-rate is NOT FOR COMPUTERS! It's to subsidize schools to get Internet access for K12 and public library facilities.
I've been doing e-rate applications for myself and other districts since 1999, and it was NEVER possible to buy classroom computers with e-rate funding. It's illegal.
Just saying.
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[–]THE_CLAW_SUCKS 3 points 7 months ago
Thank you for adding intelligence to an otherwise ridiculous string of comments.
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[–]biffnix 2 points 7 months ago
Yes, the title is actually factually incorrect. They did NOT get a "$700k federal grant for classroom computers." E-rate is EXPLICITLY not for that. It is so that schools and libraries can subsidize their costs for Internet connectivity. It's part of my job to apply for e-rate funding for my own office of education, as well as other districts, and the rules are very well defined.
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[–]THE_CLAW_SUCKS 2 points 7 months ago
This is Reddit though, so anything to bash the jews or religion will immediately be accepted as gospel.
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[–]biffnix 2 points 7 months ago
Sigh. I wish that weren't so.
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[–]TreeOct0pus 2 points 7 months ago
Wow... I wish this was higher. Adds a lot more to the conversation then discussing the various faults of Chasidim.
So what's going on with the article, then?
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[–]biffnix 2 points 7 months ago
Well, in journalism, the "hook" of the article seems to be implied fraud.
However, when reading the article, it's clear that the districts did NOT commit fraud at all. In fact, as part of getting e-rate funding approved, every application goes through what we call "PIA" which is Program Integrity Assurance, which is essentially an audit of your e-rate application (which must be filed every year). PIA verifies that the information on your e-rate filing is correct and accurate. They check things such as eligibility of requested services, verification of free and reduced lunch percentage, student population, school building addresses, that sort of thing. Applicants must respond to PIA requests within 7 business days, or their funding is denied.
Once you pass PIA, then, and only then, will they issue a Funding Commitment Decision Letter, which sets aside the funding for the applicant. They STILL don't get the money, though! The E-rate program is a reimbursement program for actual billed cost, so you must submit your actual bills for eligible services (that is, you must pay up front, and then the feds reimburse your school the following year). So they are never given money up front for spending. They are reimbursed when they submit bills for eligible services.
The minimum reimbursement percentage is 50%, and it goes higher if your school poor, or rural. Some schools get a 90% reimbursement on eligible services, if they are both poor AND rural. They still have the pay the bills up front, and get reimbursed the following fiscal year, though.
The article states that Lakewood, as a rapidly growing community, gets more e-rate dollars than older, larger communities. The implication is that the money is being misappropriated, but the situation actually makes perfect sense when you look at how E-rate works.
In older communities with established Internet infrastructure, the only e-rate eligible costs would be for the recurring circuit costs. No new schools require new wiring or circuits installed, or fiber pulled. That infrastructure is expensive, and is e-rate eligible. It makes sense older established communities have already built out this infrastructure, and so don't need more e-rate federal money to build out to their schools.
New schools, though, need fiber pulled to the campus, or new wiring installed. That's all labor intensive, and since it's eligible for e-rate, it makes perfect sense that these growing communities get more e-rate money. It's literally what the program is SUPPOSED to do - get Internet connections to facilities that don't already have them.
So I get that the journalist wants to make it look like huge waste of federal tax dollars, even though this isn't really true if you know about the e-rate program. That's just what sells papers, I suppose.
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[–]framerotblues 1 point 7 months ago
But where is the money going? Are these schools installing 10 gigabit fiber routers for their four desktop computers? Or are they just applying for the money and saying that they're installing all this equipment?
So they are never given money up front for spending. They are reimbursed when they submit bills for eligible services.
Who audits the connectivity services that were performed, such as copper and fiber pulling and termination? Who audits the equipment that was supposedly purchased?
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[–]biffnix 1 point 7 months ago
No, they literally can't spend e-rate money on things they don't actually buy. It's not possible because e-rate funds are disbursed the following fiscal year to an e-rate eligible provider (providers must apply for, and receive what's called a "SPIN" number) AFTER the services are provided. The school/library who is approved for e-rate funding must actually pay the bill out-of-pocket first, and then they are reimbursed the following fiscal year after they send in verified bills for the services they actually end up using and/or installing.
This is also another dishonest representation of the article. E-rate Funding Commitment Decision Letters set aside the maximum amount eligible for discount. However, they only reimburse for the ACTUAL billed amount. Since you cannot go back later and get reimbursed for more than you said you were willing to buy up front, it is encouraged to apply for any eligible services you MIGHT use the next fiscal year. This is because if you don't use it, no big deal, you still are approved for what you DO use. If you underestimate what you'll pay next year, you can NOT go back and ask for more to make up the difference.
For example, let's say I'm building a new school in my district next year. I apply THIS fall for next year's new school. I apply for a 1Gbps Internet service from a local ISP. I apply for a 32-pair single-mode fiber installation from the nearest pole to my building. I apply for routers, switches, wireless access points, cabling, jacks, and labor to do a turnkey installation. I apply for $120,000 for all of that. If I pass Program Integrity Assurance and get approved for that amount, I get my funding commitment decision letter.
Now come July 1 of next year, I begin construction, and I decide to install it all myself using cheaper labor, and an approved contractor (e-rate is required to have a public bid process) who installs everything. Since I do the physical installation and configuration myself, I save $30,00 on installation cost. While I was APPROVED for $120,000, I can only submit for e-rate reimbursement on what I actually PAID OUT. In this case, $90,000. So e-rate pays the reimbursement for the billed amount of $90,000, and the $30,000 I never use stays in the e-rate fund for next year for anyone else to apply for and use. I don't see a dime of that, even though I was approved up to that amount.
But, if a newspaper looks online at how much my district was awarded, they'll probably print a headline that reads "School Receives $120,000 in Taxpayer Money!!!" even though that's not true.
Since you asked, you can always call the district in question and simply ask what they spent their e-rate money on. Getting fiber infrastructure to their new buildings is not cheap. Have you ever managed a project to build out fiber to a new facility, and equip it? Let's put it this way - single mode fiber installation can range from $10-$100 per foot for installation. How many miles do you need to connect to the nearest ISP, connect all of your school buildings, and connect all of it up? How much does ISP cost per year for a commercial circuit? Do you build capacity for the four computers you have, or for the thousands of nodes you may someday have? If you're wise, you build out capacity for much more than you think you'll ever need. I've never once built out a project that used less bandwidth over time. That number has only ever risen.
The ONE point you make that I will concede is a problem with applying for e-rate reimbursement is that the program is intended so that students (for K12 facilities) and the public (for public libraries) have access to broadband Internet. This might mean the building has access, since the administration needs it to conduct school business, but their policy keeps actual students from accessing the Internet. THIS should be the focus of the article, not the fact that e-rate funds were absolutely used to get Internet service to K12 facilities (which they did, and adhered to the guidelines for the E-rate application process). Why aren't STUDENTS realizing the benefit of the taxpayer-funded Internet access?
If I were writing the article, the stress should be on the strange policy of keeping students from using the Internet when the program has a stated goal of this:
Full access to telecommunications and information resources makes possible the rich teaching and learning that take place in schools and libraries. For these institutions to provide the high level of service necessary for their students and patrons to participate fully in American society, the costs can be great. Telecommunications and Internet access, the hardware needed for assembling local networks, and maintenance of systems and machines can stretch budgets that are already under stress.
The universal service Schools and Libraries Program, commonly known as the E-rate Program, helps ensure that schools and libraries can obtain telecommunications and Internet access at affordable rates.
The article states that the district properly applied for Internet access to its facilities, and was legitimately reimbursed for it. This is not in conflict with the e-rate program. In my opinion, the REAL issue is that the program provides benefit for the school employees who are allowed to use the Internet, but NOT the students, who really should be the beneficiaries of this federal program.
It's also not taxpayer-funded, specifically - it is funded through the surcharge on landline customers. The "Universal Service Fund" surcharge funds this program in its entirety, so landline customers are paying for schools and libraries to get discounted telecommunications and data service connectivity.
Hope that helps!
Cheers.
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[–]hdhale 1 point 7 months ago
From the article, they appear to be using the $800k to provide for isolated local area networks for their schools. Not entirely what E-rate was intended to do.
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[–]biffnix 2 points 7 months ago
Actually, E-rate funding can absolutely be used for LAN equipment, as long as it is eligible equipment. WiFi access points, switches, cabling, and maintenance qualify for Internal Connections funding if their federal free and reduced lunch count for their school qualifies them. The portion of e-rate funding for internal connections depends on the free and reduced lunch percentage, with highest percentage districts being funded first. However, this methodology changed in the last e-rate cycle, and there is a new 5-year funding formula for internal connections that is no longer entirely dependent on free and reduced student percentage.
It is STILL not allowed to be used for classroom computers, as the title erroneously states, however. The title of this post is factually incorrect. They did NOT use e-rate funds for classroom computers, nor could they. It would be illegal to do so, and it remains so today.
Cheers.
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[–]hdhale 2 points 7 months ago
Not disputing you at all, and indeed I can drop $800k on setting up LANs in schools without breaking much of a sweat. I was under the impression though that the funds were intended to bring the Internet to classrooms, LAN equipment being part of that (at least where it doesn't already exist or is sorely in need of an upgrade), but not the raison d'etre of the program, as it was actually implemented here.
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[–]biffnix 2 points 7 months ago*
No worries, I'd rather have an informative discussion rather than an entirely emotional one. I believe we are mostly in agreement, in any case.
Here's a quote from the Schools & Libraries Division website regarding the E-rate program:
Full access to telecommunications and information resources makes possible the rich teaching and learning that take place in schools and libraries. For these institutions to provide the high level of service necessary for their students and patrons to participate fully in American society, the costs can be great. Telecommunications and Internet access, the hardware needed for assembling local networks, and maintenance of systems and machines can stretch budgets that are already under stress.
The universal service Schools and Libraries Program, commonly known as the E-rate Program, helps ensure that schools and libraries can obtain telecommunications and Internet access at affordable rates.
I think the real issue is not that the schools/districts leveraged e-rate funds to bring Internet service to their facilities. By all accounts, they adhered to e-rate guidelines and implemented them properly. There's a quote from an e-rate representative that stated it directly that there was no fraud in their e-rate application or installation.
I think the problem is that the reason Internet is being subsidized for schools & libraries by the FCC/Schools & Libraries Division is because they want to make available "the rich teaching and learning that take place in schools and libraries" with high speed Internet access for their students and patrons. In this case, that's not actually happening for the students in the seats. It's basically connecting their campuses but not connecting actual students. Unfortunately, this is not the fault of the FCC/E-Rate program. Rather, it is the odd policy instituted by school administration in this community. Only the community can fix that. If the article focused on THAT point, I think it would be a more powerful message.
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[–]hdhale 2 points 7 months ago
Ahh, they went with a WAN set up and created an administrative intranet, that makes sense. Cheeky. Definitely not in the spirit of the program, even if in compliance.
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[–]biffnix 2 points 7 months ago
Yes, I wish THAT had been the focus of the article, instead of implying fraud where none existed. At least they could then apply pressure with some sunlight on what is more clearly a misapplication of the funds for administration instead of the students. That would probably sell just as many papers, and is more accurate.
Sorry for the long quote.
Who do you think you are fooling? You think you are going to pull a quick one on your Creator? Good luck with that.
JTZ

Offline David Smith

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #57 on: March 17, 2016, 01:59:59 PM »
It's irrelevant.  Are you really trying to use that as a justification to commit fraud??
There were complaints about disproportionate usage and leeching of tax dollars. I was just curious about the numbers.
Who do you think you are fooling? You think you are going to pull a quick one on your Creator? Good luck with that.
JTZ

Offline David Smith

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #58 on: March 17, 2016, 02:01:47 PM »
If they used money intended to teach children computer access, the children were not getting computer access which in itself is hurting them.. but abusing any grant program's, like CC churning, means that in the future they will clamp down, close loopholes, audit more, be more selective etc
Saying that the children not having total internet access is abuse to them is a matter of opinion. Many would say that on the contrary, giving them total internet access would be akin to abuse.
Who do you think you are fooling? You think you are going to pull a quick one on your Creator? Good luck with that.
JTZ

Offline ShlockDoc

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #59 on: March 17, 2016, 02:06:24 PM »
Saying that the children not having total internet access is abuse to them is a matter of opinion. Many would say that on the contrary, giving them total internet access would be akin to abuse.

That's a valid opinion, but then those who believe that shouldn't take money for providing Internet service to children.