Author Topic: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes  (Read 139974 times)

Offline aj26

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #640 on: June 28, 2017, 04:59:31 PM »
What does that have to do with the OH program?
I think there is a good chance OH will go that way as well.

Offline yr

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #641 on: June 28, 2017, 05:00:26 PM »
there should be a limit for anyone learning in kollel. 2 years i say. anyone that wants to learn past that needs to get permission from the rosh yeshivas. its unsustainable to learn for 5-7 years and then start working with 3-4 kids. 35k starting salary wont cut it.

ROFL

Offline syp5

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #642 on: June 28, 2017, 05:01:26 PM »
Vouchers will eventually become income based. Even trumps voucher plan is income based.

Public schools are free regardless of income. I have read the average cost in Ohio per public school student is a minimum 16k+, The private school vouchers are about 1/4 of that amount.

Once you get past the separation of Church and state issue, why should it be income based?
« Last Edit: June 28, 2017, 05:57:43 PM by syp5 »

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #643 on: June 28, 2017, 05:02:31 PM »
Without condoning stealing from people or government in the slightest bit, I think for the most part the programs were intended to bring people up to a quality of life higher than the average Kollel lifestyle.

The primary deviation is private school, which we consider a bare necessity while the teachers unions would like to have it considered a luxury.

Also, with the reality that many parents pay more tuition than their fair share, it really is charity yet the US tax code does not allow deducting it.

״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #644 on: June 28, 2017, 05:04:38 PM »
average cost in Ohio per public school student is a minimum 16k+, The private school vouchers are about 1/4 of that amount.

+1

The teachers unions are robbing our entire society blind.

Public schools should be illegal. In many progressive countries, notably Sweden, most kids are educated at for profit schools.

Imagine how Americans would feel if most healthcare was administered in government hospitals - yet Education has a far more significant impact
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline yoohoo

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #645 on: June 28, 2017, 05:05:35 PM »

Offline TimT

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #646 on: June 28, 2017, 05:07:25 PM »
The teachers unions are robbing our entire society blind.
+1. Far too powerful. Nobody dares start with them.

Offline Mountain Man

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #647 on: June 28, 2017, 05:10:23 PM »
It seems, as was mentioned upthread, that these people joined the programs within the income range and then their income grew. A few years ago I was unemployed and when obamacare came out I was looking to price out a healthcare option. Was definitely not interested in buying right away. But because of my income I was instantly put on medicaid. B"H I got a job and didn't need it and my medicaid rolled off but it auto renewed for my wife for a few years. Every auto renewal we called in and faxed in info demonstrating we didn't need it anymore. The third go around they finally cancelled it.

My point is that there are likely a ton of people across the country who are likely on entitlement programs that ought not be especially given how hard it is to walk away from "free money". They might not have been as proactive as I was to get off. I'm curious if they'll need to be looking over their shoulders after this week?

Quote from: JTZ link=topic=10531.msg1695873
If you never had to eat crow then you lived one boring life.

Offline mgarfin

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #648 on: June 28, 2017, 05:14:11 PM »
It seems, as was mentioned upthread, is that these people joined the programs within the income range and then their income grew. A few years ago I was unemployed and when obamacare came out I was looking to price out a healthcare option. Was definitely not interested in buying right away. But because of my income I was instantly put on medicaid. B"H I got a job and didn't need it and my medicaid rolled off but it auto renewed for my wife for a few years. Every auto renewal we called in and faxed in info demonstrating we didn't need it anymore. The third go around they finally cancelled it.

My point is that there are likely a ton of people across the country who are likely on entitlement programs that ought not be especially given how hard it is to walk away from "free money". They might not have been as proactive as I was to get off. I'm curious if they'll need to be looking over their shoulders after this week?

I am trying to get my wife off medecad for a long time, its not so easy. At a point, she was off but then found herself back on.
Self-employed ppl don't have their income paycheck to paycheck and it can become a big mess.

Offline TimT

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #649 on: June 28, 2017, 05:14:58 PM »
That would depend on the definition of "ought not be" & where they live.

Offline Mountain Man

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #650 on: June 28, 2017, 05:19:30 PM »
That would depend on the definition of "ought not be" & where they live.
True, I'm not speaking about NJ in specific. These programs don't have a lot of compassion for how broad a range "middle class" is.
Quote from: JTZ link=topic=10531.msg1695873
If you never had to eat crow then you lived one boring life.

Offline TimT

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #651 on: June 28, 2017, 05:24:32 PM »
True, I'm not speaking about NJ in specific. These programs don't have a lot of compassion for how broad a range "middle class" is.
There was a link posted earlier upthread of a town going after somebody for not reporting $1k or $5k.

Offline aygart

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #652 on: June 28, 2017, 05:33:29 PM »
@Baruch has been pretty silent through all this. Is this still your opinion?

To be honest, that actually makes sense. (90% is an over exaggeration, the regular guy on programs loses about 50-60% of his income, until the insurance cliff comes.)

But all truth be told, I never really cared if there was an economics argument to be made for the proposal.
I still don't want to see tens of thousand of my brethren, being thrown into poverty.
How about going to jail? I hope not 10s of thousands.
Do you feel that over the long term it is helpful or hurtful to the family to create a situation where they are stuck with a FS income?
Which you never answered clearly in the other thread.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #653 on: June 28, 2017, 06:19:26 PM »
More arrested or is it a rumor?

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #654 on: June 28, 2017, 06:41:56 PM »
Aren't you 2 days early for a comment like that
Meds, what day is it?  ;)
I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #655 on: June 28, 2017, 06:43:47 PM »
Wasn't the whole purpose of these programs to get them out of that?
Was talking about the programs but about the mentality of why one does things as someone brought up.
I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline aygart

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #656 on: June 28, 2017, 06:45:04 PM »
Was talking about the programs but about the mentality of why one does things as someone brought up.
Everyone's mentality of why they do something will be based on their own life story.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline ExGingi

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #657 on: June 28, 2017, 06:48:02 PM »
Do you feel that over the long term it is helpful or hurtful to the family to create a situation where they are stuck with a FS income?
A friend with a large family discussed his situation with me. He felt that his dependence on government programs his hindering his mentality and trapping him in his situation.

We put down on a spreadsheet all his expenses (including those covered currently by programs and grants), and then all sources of income (including programs and grants).

We then started to examine how would various increases to his income affect his lifestyle.

Here were some of the things we learned:

1. He was extremely lucky to buy his house when he bought it, and subsequently get a mortgage modification, or else it would be close to impossible.

2. He is extremely lucky to legally qualify for something called Qualified Tuition Reduction.

3. In order to maintain the same (modest) lifestyle without all the non-taxable benefits (Medicaid, Pell Grants, QTR) he would have to earn about double what he currently earns (counting the QTR as current income, even though it is not considered such by the IRS, and is therefore not taxed).

The exercise was eye opening, and he realized why his neighbor is STRUGGLING on an income of $300k!

After running the numbers, he decided that he is comfortable earning more, to the extent that will drop him off FS rolls, but would still qualify him for a full Pell grant for his children (and for Medicaid, based on his income and family size).
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #658 on: June 28, 2017, 06:54:29 PM »
Everyone's mentality of why they do something will be based on their own life story.
Agree and is meaningless when they do something illegal. That was the only point I was making.

I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline aygart

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Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
« Reply #659 on: June 28, 2017, 06:56:01 PM »
Agree and is meaningless when they do something illegal. That was the only point I was making.


These things have meaning in a sentencing phase and in plea negotiations.
Feelings don't care about your facts