Author Topic: Newsweek exposÚ on Oholei Torah  (Read 5732 times)

Offline ganizzy

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Re: Newsweek exposÚ on Oholei Torah
« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2016, 11:32:12 PM »
Bec physical abuse was tolerated then.  Now it's not,  so the teacher doesn't abuse anymore.  It's a method that hanhala turned a blind eye to.  Now that's not the case.  Some of the teachers mentioned are still teaching and are actually good teachers.  They use positive methods to have control in the classroom

Offline gozalim

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Re: Newsweek exposÚ on Oholei Torah
« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2016, 11:35:09 PM »
Is that kind of physical abuse the same pathological incurable as SA?

Offline chevron

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Re: Newsweek exposÚ on Oholei Torah
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2016, 01:24:14 AM »
I only heard about getting a mashkante? Corporal punishment was considered OK 25 years ago.

Maybe a few have real abuse issues and a few have temper issues but I don't see it as sexual abuse

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Re: Newsweek exposÚ on Oholei Torah
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2016, 11:09:09 AM »
being a student by two of the teachers mentioned  in the article only about 12 years ago (yes I'm an oholei torahnik) I can say that the hitting a child was still considered a method of  punishment, though we didn't see it every day we didn't look at it upgefrekt, it made sense and wasn't something we felt that we needed to tell our parents and definitely not something to fire a teacher over.  Now back to the original story which happened over 25 years ago, you have to think what should the principal have done, make a big deal? That way making the students feel like victims (they didn't know that's the way their supposed to feel back then)?  Think about how the students themselves would have felt, something that wasn't normal to be brought to attention Forget about putting someone in jail for something that was done to them. Now think about the hitting, these teachers were hitting when it was normal slowly the methods of punishments change, but being that their method of punishment is working for them they stuck to it, (not saying that they were good teachers or not),  but they were regular teacher's that used their old school method as long as they could, now that it's not acceptable anymore (from what I understand) they stopped. I'm not trying to say the school is right or wrong,  but think of how this article would have looked 12 years ago when (very rearly) the hitting was still going on.  Most people would have just laughed at the article and be in understanding with  the teacher (or at least not willing to get them fired let alone press charges) now about 12 years later they take an outdated piece of information and go to an outdated newspaper and are trying to raise awareness. This article would not have gotten any publicity back then. No reason it should now
(Just my humble opinion)
#oholeitorahchai :)

Offline shmoe joe

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Re: Newsweek exposÚ on Oholei Torah
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2016, 11:33:47 AM »
being a student by two of the teachers mentioned  in the article only about 12 years ago (yes I'm an oholei torahnik) I can say that the hitting a child was still considered a method of  punishment, though we didn't see it every day we didn't look at it upgefrekt, it made sense and wasn't something we felt that we needed to tell our parents and definitely not something to fire a teacher over.  Now back to the original story which happened over 25 years ago, you have to think what should the principal have done, make a big deal? That way making the students feel like victims (they didn't know that's the way their supposed to feel back then)?  Think about how the students themselves would have felt, something that wasn't normal to be brought to attention Forget about putting someone in jail for something that was done to them. Now think about the hitting, these teachers were hitting when it was normal slowly the methods of punishments change, but being that their method of punishment is working for them they stuck to it, (not saying that they were good teachers or not),  but they were regular teacher's that used their old school method as long as they could, now that it's not acceptable anymore (from what I understand) they stopped. I'm not trying to say the school is right or wrong,  but think of how this article would have looked 12 years ago when (very rearly) the hitting was still going on.  Most people would have just laughed at the article and be in understanding with  the teacher (or at least not willing to get them fired let alone press charges) now about 12 years later they take an outdated piece of information and go to an outdated newspaper and are trying to raise awareness. This article would not have gotten any publicity back then. No reason it should now
(Just my humble opinion)
#oholeitorahchai :)
+1000
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Re: Newsweek exposÚ on Oholei Torah
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2016, 04:53:39 PM »
... (very rearly)
#oholeitorahchai :)

2+2 is....  ;)
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline zale

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Re: Newsweek exposÚ on Oholei Torah
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2016, 08:28:41 PM »
being a student by two of the teachers mentioned  in the article only about 12 years ago (yes I'm an oholei torahnik) I can say that the hitting a child was still considered a method of  punishment, though we didn't see it every day we didn't look at it upgefrekt, it made sense and wasn't something we felt that we needed to tell our parents and definitely not something to fire a teacher over.  Now back to the original story which happened over 25 years ago, you have to think what should the principal have done, make a big deal? That way making the students feel like victims (they didn't know that's the way their supposed to feel back then)?  Think about how the students themselves would have felt, something that wasn't normal to be brought to attention Forget about putting someone in jail for something that was done to them. Now think about the hitting, these teachers were hitting when it was normal slowly the methods of punishments change, but being that their method of punishment is working for them they stuck to it, (not saying that they were good teachers or not),  but they were regular teacher's that used their old school method as long as they could, now that it's not acceptable anymore (from what I understand) they stopped. I'm not trying to say the school is right or wrong,  but think of how this article would have looked 12 years ago when (very rearly) the hitting was still going on.  Most people would have just laughed at the article and be in understanding with  the teacher (or at least not willing to get them fired let alone press charges) now about 12 years later they take an outdated piece of information and go to an outdated newspaper and are trying to raise awareness. This article would not have gotten any publicity back then. No reason it should now
(Just my humble opinion)
#oholeitorahchai :)

Your argument is correct for one of those teachers, but not the other. The primary teacher in question in that article was abusive, plain and simple. Dangling a child out the window and pulling down his pants in front of the entire class and spanking him is not the "old way". The "old way" was a "frask" or a "potch". This man had anger issues, and when provoked, let loose and abused children in the most vicious way. Students and parents alike, even way back then, found it to be extremely disturbing.

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Newsweek exposÚ on Oholei Torah
« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2016, 08:37:50 PM »
being a student by two of the teachers mentioned  in the article only about 12 years ago (yes I'm an oholei torahnik)...


...(Just my humble opinion)
#oholeitorahchai :)

I think your English makes it obvious... :P

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Re: Newsweek exposÚ on Oholei Torah
« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2016, 08:51:53 PM »
Your argument is correct for one of those teachers, but not the other. The primary teacher in question in that article was abusive, plain and simple. Dangling a child out the window and pulling down his pants in front of the entire class and spanking him is not the "old way". The "old way" was a "frask" or a "potch". This man had anger issues, and when provoked, let loose and abused children in the most vicious way. Students and parents alike, even way back then, found it to be extremely disturbing.
While it's impossible for me to say what your saying is false, for I was not in the classroom while you were (pulling down a kids pants even back then would not have been accepted and we would have at least been warned about it,  so I highly doubt it ever happened...), I can only say that in my day he did not hang anyone out the window (we were actually in the basement so it wouldn't have been so scary if possible at all), and yes he did hit (I remember all three  times and to who he hit my year) and he did pick up a kid by his shirt (once) and yes parents didn't like him and possibly the school didn't either, but for those accounts alone (in those days) was no means to fire a teacher whose been there by then for over ten years
(and btw I am not trying to stick up for the teacher at all I have my own opinion why he shouldn't be there (aka he didn't teach, we barely sat and learnt at all that year, we were always busy doing something as long as we weren't in the classroom learning...) I'm sticking up for the principal who "should have" fired him over these counts, back then it was not strong enough grounds to fire.
Side point if you have any idea how oholei torah worked back then, they would have to fight a large amount of protesting teachers who would have made it very difficult to fire one of the more "popular" teachers.
Again I'm just bringing another side to the story and not trying to side with anyone.

Offline zale

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Re: Newsweek exposÚ on Oholei Torah
« Reply #29 on: April 04, 2016, 10:39:41 PM »
While it's impossible for me to say what your saying is false, for I was not in the classroom while you were (pulling down a kids pants even back then would not have been accepted and we would have at least been warned about it,  so I highly doubt it ever happened...)

Considering that I know the boy's name that this happened to, your statement disqualifies you from this thread. Go find another thread to troll.

Offline high end hobo

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Re: Newsweek exposÚ on Oholei Torah
« Reply #30 on: April 05, 2016, 01:42:31 AM »
Considering that I know the boy's name that this happened to, your statement disqualifies you from this thread. Go find another thread to troll.
I also happen to know the name of alleged victim, that does nothing to mitigate the veracity of chbochurs assertions lol, and certainly doesn't disqualify him from the thread?

Re: trolling, I would take a good look in the mirror before calling others trolls

Offline Zalc

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Re: Newsweek exposÚ on Oholei Torah
« Reply #31 on: April 05, 2016, 02:03:05 AM »
Considering that I know the boy's name that this happened to, your statement disqualifies you from this thread. Go find another thread to troll.
The boy that this allegedly happened to learned there quite a few years before @chbochur, what happened years earlier doesn't disqualify his statement that things have changed.

I can also corroborate that in my years of OT none of the stories that you mentioned happened (to the best of my knowledge). Though I cannot know whether they happened many years earlier...

Keep it civil, no need for trolling here.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2016, 02:07:47 AM by Zalc »

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Re: Newsweek exposÚ on Oholei Torah
« Reply #32 on: April 05, 2016, 06:34:16 AM »
Considering that I know the boy's name that this happened to, your statement disqualifies you from this thread. Go find another thread to troll.
With all do respect a name of a "victim" doesn't help me believe it so i don't care to know it, what would help would be the names of those in the classroom who witnessed it.  I would put down money that something like this happened, "mendy said something chutzpahdik for the the forth time in two days so rabbi... got fed up (maybe even angry) and told him to pull down his pants (which no sane kid would do - yes even a little child back then  would never do that in front of his friends) and without the kid actually pulling down his pants rabbi... slapped him probably more then once".
Without anyone that was there to say it happened otherwise that is what I choose to believe,  your entitled to believe otherwise but I  can't wonder why someone wasn't fired until i know 100 percent what actually happened.
(We all know how we oholei torahniks  can take a story and without technically lying are be able to twist a story to what ever we want (for example start up with a kid and somehow he was the one sent home...) these stories happened every day,  and to all of a sudden belive this one story that "could of happened" is something I'm not willing to do unless I hear from two witnesses that were there).


you asked "why does oholei torah stubbornly refuse to fire the abusive teacher in question" like you yourself wrote "in question" something in question from over twenty years ago should get fired now????

You asked "any insight would be appreciated" and you call me a troller? With all due respect, you sound like someone who doesn't really want an answer rather someone with whom you can share your anger over them not firing, which apparently your not getting so maybe you should go troll somewhere else!!!!
« Last Edit: April 05, 2016, 06:40:31 AM by chbochur »

Offline zale

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Re: Newsweek exposÚ on Oholei Torah
« Reply #33 on: April 05, 2016, 11:29:49 PM »
you asked "why does oholei torah stubbornly refuse to fire the abusive teacher in question" like you yourself wrote "in question" something in question from over twenty years ago should get fired now????

You asked "any insight would be appreciated" and you call me a troller? With all due respect, you sound like someone who doesn't really want an answer rather someone with whom you can share your anger over them not firing, which apparently your not getting so maybe you should go troll somewhere else!!!!

Not quite sure why I am bothering to respond to this, but heck, why not knock some sense into you.

I stated in the original post as a fact that there is an abusive teacher in the school. To be polite and to keep it simple, I backed up this fact with the Newsweek article, rather than to state that I have personally witnessed this man abuse children.

I then proceeded to ask if anyone can provide insight as to why this teacher who has abused children as recently as 2013, is still teaching in that school. Has he blackmailed the school? Is the school afraid of him?

I most certainly did not ask if anyone can corroborate or dispute the facts in the Newsweek article.

Coming along and stating that you "don't believe that he was abusive", or that "what he did was not abuse at the time" is not answering my question, but merely trolling and stating that the question is not a question altogether. Furthermore, coming along and stating that "you don't believe" that which I know as a fact, has no place in this discussion.

Quote
With all do respect a name of a "victim" doesn't help me believe it so i don't care to know it, what would help would be the names of those in the classroom who witnessed it.  I would put down money that something like this happened, "mendy said something chutzpahdik for the the forth time in two days so rabbi... got fed up (maybe even angry) and told him to pull down his pants (which no sane kid would do - yes even a little child back then  would never do that in front of his friends) and without the kid actually pulling down his pants rabbi... slapped him probably more then once".

Who asked you to state what you believe? I have stated this as a fact. You are welcome to ask me to back it up, but by all means, don't attempt to insult my intelligence because you "don't believe".

Quote
Without anyone that was there to say it happened otherwise that is what I choose to believe,  your entitled to believe otherwise but I  can't wonder why someone wasn't fired until i know 100 percent what actually happened.
(We all know how we oholei torahniks  can take a story and without technically lying are be able to twist a story to what ever we want (for example start up with a kid and somehow he was the one sent home...) these stories happened every day,  and to all of a sudden belive this one story that "could of happened" is something I'm not willing to do unless I hear from two witnesses that were there).

See above. Who the heck cares what you "think"?

Offline high end hobo

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Re: Newsweek exposÚ on Oholei Torah
« Reply #34 on: April 05, 2016, 11:42:32 PM »


I stated in the original post as a fact that there is an abusive teacher in the school. To be polite and to keep it simple, I backed up this fact with the Newsweek article, rather than to state that I have personally witnessed this man abuse children.



You can state something as a fact in a post, and even back it up with a newsweek article, it still doesn't become a fact, but rather remains an allegation.


I then proceeded to ask if anyone can provide insight as to why this teacher who has abused children as recently as 2013, is still teaching in that school. Has he blackmailed the school? Is the school afraid of him?



Maybe that's precisely it, the school doesn't necessarily view it is fact, although you may.
Which is why I recommended going to the Police in search of justice, instead of DDF

Online chbochur

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Re: Newsweek exposÚ on Oholei Torah
« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2016, 03:52:01 AM »
Not quite sure why I am bothering to respond to this, but heck, why not knock some sense into you.

I stated in the original post as a fact that there is an abusive teacher in the school. To be polite and to keep it simple, I backed up this fact with the Newsweek article, rather than to state that I have personally witnessed this man abuse children.

I then proceeded to ask if anyone can provide insight as to why this teacher who has abused children as recently as 2013, is still teaching in that school. Has he blackmailed the school? Is the school afraid of him?

I most certainly did not ask if anyone can corroborate or dispute the facts in the Newsweek article.

Coming along and stating that you "don't believe that he was abusive", or that "what he did was not abuse at the time" is not answering my question, but merely trolling and stating that the question is not a question altogether. Furthermore, coming along and stating that "you don't believe" that which I know as a fact, has no place in this discussion.

Who asked you to state what you believe? I have stated this as a fact. You are welcome to ask me to back it up, but by all means, don't attempt to insult my intelligence because you "don't believe".

See above. Who the heck cares what you "think"?
You mention here that as late as 2013 he was still hitting ?  I haven't seen that in any of your posts till now,  that changes everything there is a big difference between a teacher hitting 15 years ago and three years ago,  If this was the fact then I'm just as curious as you, but my question to you is, how on earth do you know as a fact that he hit in 1990  and that he also hit in 2013? We're you in third grade all these years? ?? My point is just because in shul your friend told you he hit his son doesn't make it fact, could be it was being overplayed by 100 times.
Once again I'm not trying to stick up for anyone, rather give some sort of explanation of why he wasn't fired which for whatever reason apparently you don't want an answer to the question.
Tip for life,  if you weren't such a hater and get involved in all this nonsense that has nothing to do with you you'd live a life with alot less stress, and chances are you'd be a happier person.