Author Topic: Books on torah from a outside point  (Read 7282 times)

Offline chevron

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Books on torah from a outside point
« on: March 30, 2016, 08:08:41 PM »
How about some constructive discussion?

I am fascinated by books that deal with the formulation of Rabbinic judaism and history of jews from the churban till 1000 CE

Offline sharkky

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Re: Books on torah from a outside point
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2016, 09:09:42 PM »
 :o :o :o    ::) ::)

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Books on torah from a outside point
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2016, 09:32:01 PM »
How about some constructive discussion?

I am fascinated by books that deal with the formulation of Rabbinic judaism and history of jews from the churban till 1000 CE
You were brought up in a frum home. You should know that reading sefarim chitzonim and kefirah is basically yehareg vea'l yaavor.

If you are truly looking for intellectual stimulation, there are many orders of knowledge that you can pursue.
If you are seeking to kasher a shertz, it is a futile effort that will get you nowhere.

Offline Aaaron

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Re: Books on torah from a outside point
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2016, 09:49:06 PM »
You were brought up in a frum home. You should know that reading sefarim chitzonim and kefirah is basically yehareg vea'l yaavor.


Where did he say anything that should be deemed kefirah?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbinic_Judaism

Isn't that what we all believe? 


If you are truly looking for intellectual stimulation, there are many orders of knowledge that you can pursue.
If you are seeking to kasher a shertz, it is a futile effort that will get you nowhere.

Isn't that exactly what he's looking for?

Offline beeweegee

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Re: Books on torah from a outside point
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2016, 09:55:39 PM »
You were brought up in a frum home. You should know that reading sefarim chitzonim and kefirah is basically yehareg vea'l yaavor.

If you are truly looking for intellectual stimulation, there are many orders of knowledge that you can pursue.
If you are seeking to kasher a shertz, it is a futile effort that will get you nowhere.
I think you misread Rabbinic Judaism as Reform or Reconstructionist Judaism?

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Books on torah from a outside point
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2016, 09:59:32 PM »
Where did he say anything that should be deemed kefirah?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbinic_Judaism

Isn't that what we all believe? 

Isn't that exactly what he's looking for?
Let's just say I know my customers.

Anyway, you're right, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. - He's not looking to discredit Chazal.

Offline chevron

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Re: Books on torah from a outside point
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2016, 10:33:52 PM »
wow

Actually I eat by Rabbi Ely Smith a lot.. and this is a real discussion.. kefirah? really? common, there would not be a post if that was the issue.. I asked my brother who asked a big rav in chabad who basically said well yeah you wont get much from these books i.e. intellectual stimulation ;)

I dont agree with that, the one good piece of advice was to avoid tayla fishman and that rav soloveitchik ripped her.. I emailed rav soloveitchik to no reply.

Actually would like to interject that my best friend told me "you had no business learning in chabad, you belonged in YU" and I dropped out of school at 15.

So i'm opening constructive discussion here, there are plenty of books, read:seforim that are not in the main stream library

I own translations to: Tana dve eliyahu, Avot d'rabbi nasan, Mechilta D'rabbi yismael, Pesikta D'rav kahana,

To quote churn, you need to know your customers. There are many old JPS / JTS stuff that is great

Robert Brody is great. Ive seen ellman quoted a lot, Schamma friedman?

I know saul lieberman attacked jacob neusener and I know of lieberman from a famous question to the Rebbe regarding JTS

And then you have david weiss halivni, he got semicha at 15, knew all of shas... thinks God died in aushwitz.

I fail to see why ANYONE thinks we should just read / learn kehos / feldheim / artscroll... thats stupid and foolish.. If I wanted to be an apikores I sure as hell would not ask an opinion of this forum.

Rather, i'm looking to buy useful productive books, in fascinated by the talmudic and geonic era and honestly they dont teach this in yeshiva and the usual suspects are either not publishing this or they publish worthless junk.

I loved Rabbi Lau's the sages, I am enamored by the Cairo Geniza works, I have SD Goiten's a Mediterranean society. I am fascinated by the golden age of spain of poetry danush, ibn gabriol etc.. I would love to learn more about the paytonim and such


If you think that is kefira, i'm confused.

Offline Baruch

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Re: Books on torah from a outside point
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2016, 10:38:56 PM »
thinks God died in aushwitz.


If you think that is kefira, i'm confused.

Offline chevron

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Re: Books on torah from a outside point
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2016, 10:40:46 PM »
William Braude translated Medrash Tehillim. If you think seforim chitzonim are an issue, go get a Doctorate in history and linguistics and translate me books.

I always say re: chosid shoteh, if your in the bathroom on the toilet and its sof zman kris shma, what do you do??

The post is because I specifically want to avoid ignorant authors and works of heresy. I want to learn in an academic context.. I dont care what level of yirat shamayim the writer is ay

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Re: Books on torah from a outside point
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2016, 10:44:31 PM »


?? I did not buy his books, I had a discussion on him with Rabbi Ely Smith. My point is exactly so, some writers are great, some are not..

My issue with Halivni isnt his knowledge i.e. bc he is fluent in shas nor his emunah or lack, rather he thinks the talmud was written much later

$5 says I can find you 100 people on any frum street that say yekum purkam weekly and have no idea what any of it means

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Books on torah from a outside point
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2016, 10:45:36 PM »
Honestly I'm not totally following what you are looking for.

If for eg. You want to know more about the lives and times of the amoraim? then shas is full of fascinating anecdotes.  Start by learning shas.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Books on torah from a outside point
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2016, 10:46:49 PM »
?? I did not buy his books, I had a discussion on him with Rabbi Ely Smith. My point is exactly so, some writers are great, some are not..

My issue with Halivni isnt his knowledge i.e. bc he is fluent in shas nor his emunah or lack, rather he thinks the talmud was written much later

$5 says I can find you 100 people on any frum street that say yekum purkam weekly and have no idea what any of it means
What does yekum purkan have to do with any of this?
Maybe I'm just tired.

Offline chevron

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Re: Books on torah from a outside point
« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2016, 10:53:32 PM »
What does yekum purkan have to do with any of this?
Maybe I'm just tired.

In Robert Brody's book, he delves in to the whole acedmies and explains what the reisha kalla was and dayaneu debava etc.. I mean one can say this lofty prayer every week your whole life with no idea what it means

"Just go to learn shas" isnt helpful, im looking to read / learn well researched works on the formulation of rabbanic judasim.. I do the naaseh, I need the nishma.

Offline Tzafnas Paneach

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Re: Books on torah from a outside point
« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2016, 11:09:31 PM »

I dont agree with that, the one good piece of advice was to avoid tayla fishman and that rav soloveitchik ripped her.. I emailed rav soloveitchik to no reply.



Why would you email Rav Soloveitchik? He destroyed her publicly in a book review. Just read his book review.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2016, 11:13:46 PM by Tzafnas Paneach »

Offline Tzafnas Paneach

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Re: Books on torah from a outside point
« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2016, 11:13:03 PM »
In Robert Brody's book, he delves in to the whole acedmies and explains what the reisha kalla was and dayaneu debava etc.. I mean one can say this lofty prayer every week your whole life with no idea what it means

"Just go to learn shas" isnt helpful, im looking to read / learn well researched works on the formulation of rabbanic judasim.. I do the naaseh, I need the nishma.
I would stay away from academic works on rabbinic literature if you have no idea how tell who is saying straight kaferia and who isn't. If your really set on it, it's safe to read Rav Haym soloveitchiks collected works.

Offline chevron

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Re: Books on torah from a outside point
« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2016, 11:38:42 PM »

Why would you email Rav Soloveitchik? He destroyed her publicly in a book review. Just read his book review.

I emailed him about what I should read.

Avoiding acedemia... thats easy to say but when you want to learn Tana Deve Eliyahu in ENGLISH... where do you turn?

Why does the outside world have a better literary advancement than we do on our own stuff ? the answer of "learn it in hebrew / yidish / aramaic" or "just dont learn it" is not sufficient to me.

Littman Library of jewish civilization has produced some crap, but all too often the black hats at artscroll etc forget Rabbi Marcus Lehman.

I just want to learn / read in the right prospective even when out of context. I think for example bad prose, bad linguistics, historical context of just the judaic topic and such are really not what Torah is about.

I always wonder why the Torah needs to tell us of lavan's descendants and the Rambam writes about this as important as "Anochi, lo yihiye etc"

I am open to suggestions. BTW I bought a book by simon schama, after a few pages I realized it was pure trash

Offline sharkky

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Re: Books on torah from a outside point
« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2016, 11:43:51 PM »

Wow  did you open this thread to show how much you've already read?  ::)      jk vry impressive  8)

Do you hav an opinion on Marc B Shapiro?   changing the immutable sounds interesting

Offline Tzafnas Paneach

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Re: Books on torah from a outside point
« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2016, 11:56:14 PM »
Wow  did you open this thread to show how much you've already read?  ::)      jk vry impressive  8)

Do you hav an opinion on Marc B Shapiro?   changing the immutable sounds interesting
I like the fact that he brings my attention to a lot of sources, but someone who has no idea how to learn should not take his word what the sources actually say as he sometimes misreads them, and also draws wrong conclusions. See this book review for many examples.
https://www.ou.org/jewish_action/06/2007/the_thirteen_principles_of_rambam/

IE if you don't have a strong learning background better not to read.

Offline chevron

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Re: Books on torah from a outside point
« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2016, 12:04:03 AM »
Wow  did you open this thread to show how much you've already read?  ::)      jk vry impressive  8)

Do you hav an opinion on Marc B Shapiro?   changing the immutable sounds interesting

No, I dont have facebook any more, just 500 lonely bottles of wine. I actually see this book and others recommended to me on amazon, how about menachem kellner ?

Offline chevron

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Re: Books on torah from a outside point
« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2016, 12:06:08 AM »
I like the fact that he brings my attention to a lot of sources, but someone who has no idea how to learn should not take his word what the sources actually say as he sometimes misreads them, and also draws wrong conclusions. See this book review for many examples.
https://www.ou.org/jewish_action/06/2007/the_thirteen_principles_of_rambam/

IE if you don't have a strong learning background better not to read.

I have this in my amazon cart and im confused, on the one hand the preview has kosher sources but he's written some strange stuff too

http://www.amazon.com/Stabilization-Rabbinic-Culture-C-E-350/dp/0195387740?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=ox_sc_act_title_1&smid=A2PTFCA406K9UV