Self defense

[stbaum]

Learning self defense serves another purpose. It can teach people (especially kids) respect (self and otherwise), honor, control, etc. these characteristics long outlive a fight. Another point: mace would help against alligators, wouldn't it?? I've heard it helps against bears...

[chevron]

You certainly can. You can also blame it on the bugs in the strawberries. Until anything is known, the world is open to you to identify a cause.

YOU. ARE. A. MORON.

what the holy hell does my position on bugs have to do with this.. the mere fact that you seek to co-relate different unrelated issues shows that you are a low life.

I used the situation to highlight and showcase a relevant topic and urgent need. I am sorry you are so inverted douche and cannot see the issues outlined here, so let me repeat:

There is a real and present danger in the world.. regardless of how safe any generation is...stupid comments about how mace wont protect against XYZ merely show how much that person is a clown rather than a human being with moral character and virtues.

I really do not care what mace will or will not protect against, only a donkey would espouse such cynical hate and vile trash.

Mace does work against bears correct, if it is the right one, mace and other keychain tools are very effective against an array of dangers.

Yet, this simple solution I float is met with rabble cries of charlatans and scoundrels... you mock any thing... for shame.. you seem to be morally corrupt.

Why not sign your name like a man so the whole world can know what a boorish oaf you are ?

But by all means scoff, I wait to hear your chochma regarding self defense.. go on...

[sharkky]

YOU. ARE. A. MORON.

what the holy hell does my position on bugs have to do with this.. the mere fact that you seek to co-relate different unrelated issues shows that you are a low life.

I used the situation to highlight and showcase a relevant topic and urgent need. I am sorry you are so inverted douche and cannot see the issues outlined here, so let me repeat:

There is a real and present danger in the world.. regardless of how safe any generation is...stupid comments about how mace wont protect against XYZ merely show how much that person is a clown rather than a human being with moral character and virtues.

I really do not care what mace will or will not protect against, only a donkey would espouse such cynical hate and vile trash.

Mace does work against bears correct, if it is the right one, mace and other keychain tools are very effective against an array of dangers.

Yet, this simple solution I float is met with rabble cries of charlatans and scoundrels... you mock any thing... for shame.. you seem to be morally corrupt.

Why not sign your name like a man so the whole world can know what a boorish oaf you are ?

But by all means scoff, I wait to hear your chochma regarding self defense.. go on...

wow     


Is the ddf snarkiness finally getting to you?

[yochiek93]

Learning self defense serves another purpose. It can teach people (especially kids) respect (self and otherwise), honor, control, etc. these characteristics long outlive a fight.

+100000 took the words right out of my mouth

[chevron]

My initial post although not CLEAR, did not mention assault and rape by jews..

The point of the post was that yes there is a danger of rape and assault pretty much to any one... age and gender often are key but the fact is where there are humans there are sadly crimes.

Conventional wisdom was to stay away from goyim, stay away from strangers.. I dont think thats effective in 2016 for many reasons

All I advocated was simple self defense and mace in the hands of females. I will turn the cards here, any one that opposes females learn self defense surely wants defenseless females they can abuse.

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wow     


Is the ddf snarkiness finally getting to you?

Considering I know both families involved for 15 years + and my siblings are very close with these families, that dozens of friends went to orlando to help search, that I nearly cancelled a wine event that I spent weeks on because it was not proper to do a wine fest as ones neighbor's are searching for their daughters, that I was up till 4am doing my brother's work as he drove to orlando etc etc etc

Sure, dont shove laytzanus down my throat in the name of jest when I am addressing a real issue that hit close to home...

[yochiek93]

All I advocated was simple self defense and mace in the hands of females. I will turn the cards here, any one that opposes females learn self defense surely wants defenseless females they can abuse.

Wow! This is a little harsh, don't you think?  All these people are saying is that nobody should learn self defense for whatever the reason is (IMHO it's because they are to lazy....).

[Yehuda57]

"all you advocated" was a little self defense when the issue at hand had nothing to do with that. Jumping onto that soap box before any facts were known only proved your agenda.

Now, your agenda may be noble, but your thinly veiled attacks (and now explicit) against others who differ is wrong headed.

You make as if carrying mace and learning self defense are only beneficial and have no draw backs.

Considering the historic levels of safety our communities live in, having kids carry mace can adversely affect them; they may live in fear, lose trust of others, become anxious, and more. These mental issues are far more prevalent and causing much more unrest than abduction and rape in our community.

Like sky was saying, it's a balance. But it's not so clear cut that anyone who's opinion differs to yours "surely wants defenseless females."

We need to educate children, but to say we should pause before weaponizing them is hardly the naive suicide you make it out to be.

Can you at least respect another opinion?

[chevron]

What happens when girls get some flight deal and fly to some city where it's a real issue?

I did clearly state 2 sides?!? I don't think it will help in many cases but how would it hurt?!?

My post simply states: with 2 teenaged girls missing, it brings to light a real need for self defend.

So now we have a whole gemara on it, if you merely think that's it's neither needed nor effective you may say so, not sure what's so funny about comparing this and my views on strawberries and bugs are? Because I don't think bugs are a big deal so neither is self defense.

My only beef with the frum education standpoint is that it would imply that frum girls would not be in position of dangers etc and yes I agree that it's historically very safe times and all but this has nothing to do with learning karate.

I'm talking about simple self defense tools against any attacker.

What happens when 16 year old goes to Israel and goes to sem and is attacked or attempted kidnapped by an Arab, you would advocate what? They flee? What if that isn't an option?

I respect that balance of trust and fear vs dangers that may not exist.

Thinking of it, I concede that what you argue is true when I think about it, I'd also think that if s group of girls were to say take the subway it makes sense to carry mace at least one of them.

I don't argue that this is a solutions at all, basic self defense does not require scaring women, you know how many times I've seen drunk or crazy people on the train or elsewhere that really scared me?

While I did not make my point right which is often the case, I would imagine others can see the validity of my point.

Keeping in mind that 16 year old girls babysit families and take kids shopping etc I'm not sure why some basic self defense tools is fear mongering ?

So what age would you advocate females taught self defense? I think males should as well in age of growing anti semitec attacks but that was not the point of my post.

[chevron]

Why does every post where I state a different opinion have to boil down to my hashkafa? I don't understand it, this is not like I advocated teaching kids secular studies god forbid!

At 16 or say 17, you don't think it's an age to say "well you may find yourself one day needing these tools etc" I dunno I'm not an educator nor do I imply that, and if you argue that it upsets a balance of trust in kids, how would you warn them on the dangers of strangers but not hand them the tools at one point in life? Is that not like saying hey don't go wandering in the forest and then kids may go to boy scouts and they teach you survival stuff? I dunno, maybe it's a bad comparsion .

I don't take issue with that discussion, at least it argues on the validity of the point, unless one argues that females in the Jewish world should lead an insular life with outside dangers not being an issue, I would respect that but argue that it isn't always possible etc or situations change etc.


I still fail to see how twice in this thread, my opinions on strawberries and bugs became an issue?

Any ways, I used a lot of fancy words in my other post but I was being cranky, was not trying to be insulting so I'll apologize but I think my post was funny lol I imagine mods will remove it,

[Yehuda57]

Why does every post where I state a different opinion have to boil down to my hashkafa? I don't understand it, this is not like I advocated teaching kids secular studies god forbid!

At 16 or say 17, you don't think it's an age to say "well you may find yourself one day needing these tools etc" I dunno I'm not an educator nor do I imply that, and if you argue that it upsets a balance of trust in kids, how would you warn them on the dangers of strangers but not hand them the tools at one point in life? Is that not like saying hey don't go wandering in the forest and then kids may go to boy scouts and they teach you survival stuff? I dunno, maybe it's a bad comparsion .

I don't take issue with that discussion, at least it argues on the validity of the point, unless one argues that females in the Jewish world should lead an insular life with outside dangers not being an issue, I would respect that but argue that it isn't always possible etc or situations change etc.


I still fail to see how twice in this thread, my opinions on strawberries and bugs became an issue?

Any ways, I used a lot of fancy words in my other post but I was being cranky, was not trying to be insulting so I'll apologize but I think my post was funny lol I imagine mods will remove it,

To be clear, I haven't mentioned strawberries or your views on any other thread but this. Maybe I need to do catch up, because all you've been is hostile.

[chevron]

You did not, 2 others did. Sure I should have found it funny but as I wrote, the whole story was very stressful for us all

[David Smith]

You did not, 2 others did. Sure I should have found it funny but as I wrote, the whole story was very stressful for us all

Nobody wrote that there was anything wrong with self defense, or that this story had anything to do with strawberries. What they wrote was that coming to rectify a cause of a problem in a specific case before any cause was identified displays a disconnect between the case at hand and the agenda. You connected that statement to your position of the need for self defense and assumed it to be saying that the whole thing was a joke and self defense is useless and wrong; the same way you connected this terrifying story of two missing girls to a need for self defense to be taught. You could be 100% correct, but it happened to have nothing to do with the story in this case. That's all that was pointed out.

[chevron]

Nobody wrote that there was anything wrong with self defense, or that this story had anything to do with strawberries. What they wrote was that coming to rectify a cause of a problem in a specific case before any cause was identified displays a disconnect between the case at hand and the agenda. You connected that statement to your position of the need for self defense and assumed it to be saying that the whole thing was a joke and self defense is useless and wrong; the same way you connected this terrifying story of two missing girls to a need for self defense to be taught. You could be 100% correct, but it happened to have nothing to do with the story in this case. That's all that was pointed out.

First off, as stated I have known both families involved for possibly 20 years, when your family whatsapp group is going bonkers till 4am with sisters freaking out (my sisters are all very close with these families as are my brothers etc)

Sure it was the wrong issue but the thing that comes to mind when 2 16 year olds disappear is that God forbid it could have been something like abduction or assault

Perhaps I was raised different ? I dont see dragons everywhere, I thought living in Gush Katif was normal LOL and I hadthese rockets crashing down daily.

Fear causes us to act / react, in this case fear of girls being abducted pressed me to raise a point that we should address self defense.

The argument regarding historically safe times is correct and incorrect, we are often lulled in to a sense of safety that is quickly shattered.

Why should I have an agenda ? So I worry, im not saying we should schlep teenage girls in to classes and scare the bejeekers out of them.

A few points of thought though:

Do you think lost girls would be less scared with basic self defense tools ?

I all too often hear a woman say she wont go to such and such place etc or alone at night etc NOT saying this is universal, just that I encounter it.

Are females not a bigger predatory target ?

Do you think at the time of the girls being lost, other girls etc were scared and may have been re-assured by possessing some basic self defense tools ?

And finally, do you think the family or any family with missing kids might posses a little comfort if they know their kids have a basic ability of self defense ?

It can be part of a school curriculum of "Dealing with an unexpected crisis" you can teach em first aid at the same time.

You know when they taught us stuff like this in school and camp we taught it was funny.

Now on the topic of scaring kids, I have a class action lawsuit for you for every CGI for scaring the crap out of me with stories of Shaydim!!!!!!