Women's role in judaism

[David Smith]

so why do men say shelo osani isha??? i mean men are thanking G-D that they are NOT  women

Bemakom shebaalei teshuva omdim, afilu tzadikim gemurim lo masigim.

We are by design imperfect creatures. We're put on this world to perfect ourselves. The level that one comes to through work surpasses that which comes naturally.

Each mitzvah is an opportunity to improve ourselves and fulfill our mission on this world. Women may start off higher; but because of that, they have less they need to do to grow.

We relish each additional mitzvah, the same way we pray for long life, as additional opportunities which can bring us higher than had we never had the need for it in the first place.

 Tzaddikim are on a higher plane than malachim, even though malachim are sin free; because tzadikim attained their level through their own work, and sanctified G-d's Name in the process.

This world is designed as a place of work to bring ourselves close to Hashem. We make the brachos in the morning appreciating those opportunities. This doesn't imply that men are superior to women; it implies that it is superior to be a man than to be a woman; as far as growth opportunity goes. Sure, it entails more work; but to work is why we're here.

[wayfe]

Honestly, it always bothered me somewhat and the often repeated answers that men have more Mitzvos never satisfied the question, because then they'd say a bracha thanking Hashem for that, no need to make anyone look bad.

Now I see it as superior and inferior are relative words, and it doesn't bother me as much. We all have our unique missions to fulfill. That being said, men usually do assume a more dominant position in this world. But dominant doesn't necessarily mean superior.

Can anybody (Lubavitchers) back me up? I believe I've heard something to the effect of when Moshiach comes "the female spirit will be greater than the male."

[gozalim]

Can anybody (Lubavitchers) back me up? I believe I've heard something to the effect of when Moshiach comes "the female spirit will be greater than the male."

Yup. נקבה תסובב גבר. mentioned numerous times in sichos etc.

[David Smith]

Honestly, it always bothered me somewhat and the often repeated answers that men have more Mitzvos never satisfied the question, because then they'd say a bracha thanking Hashem for that, no need to make anyone look bad.

Now I see it as superior and inferior are relative words, and it doesn't bother me as much. We all have our unique missions to fulfill. That being said, men usually do assume a more dominant position in this world. But dominant doesn't necessarily mean superior.

Can anybody (Lubavitchers) back me up? I believe I've heard something to the effect of when Moshiach comes "the female spirit will be greater than the male."

Nobody ever thought it looked bad, before the woman's rights nut jobs decided it was a misogynist  statement.
As mentioned; superior doesn't mean men are better; it means it's better to be a man. (If you have to cars in a race, and one got a bad start; you wouldn't say that the car that got the head start was superior, but you would say that it's better to receive the head start if possible, and appreciate that opportunity.)

Woman are pre designed the way Hashem wanted them. I've heard someone joke that if women make sheasani keritzono, men should make a sheasani shelo keritzono. There is some truth to this joke. Men make the brachah that they have the extra work mitzvos. Women make the brachah that they are closer to Retzono than men are. By thanking Hashem for the extra work (in making a shelo asani isha), we are essentially saying Baruch Sheasani Shelo Keritzono.

[wayfe]

Nobody ever thought it looked bad, before the woman's rights nut jobs decided it was a misogynist  statement.

As mentioned; superior doesn't mean men are better; it means it's better to be a man. (If you have to cars in a race, and one got a bad start; you wouldn't say that the car that got the head start was superior

What does better mean? If you're in race, then yes faster is better. But life isn't a race or a competition.

As far as the bracha is concerned, it sounds pretty bad. Don't make it sound like only nutjobs would think it's misogynistic.

[David Smith]

What does better mean? If you're in race, then yes faster is better. But life isn't a race or a competition.

As far as the bracha is concerned, it sounds pretty bad. Don't make it sound like only nutjobs would think it's misogynistic.

You missed the point and the example.

[wayfe]

You missed the point and the example.

No I got it.

Mentioned earlier, I don't think that the women are spiritually closer to G-d is a valid answer. If you were thanking hashem for more Mitzvos you'd phrase it as such. Keep women out of it.

And to continue your example you'd say something like "I'm lucky I got to compete in a race" not even "I'm lucky I didn't get a head start" definitely not "I'm lucky I'm not one those who got a head start."

[ExGingi]

We make this brucha because men have mitzvahs which woman don't and therefore we make that brucha, we thank hoshem that we have more mitzvahs.

Taking this a step further:

We say שלא עשני גוי, because they only have 7 mitzvos
We say שלא עשני עבד, because they have a few more mitzvos than a goy
We say שלא עשני אשה, because they are only potur from מצוות עשה שהזמן גרמא.

Why then don't we say שלא עשני שוטה, as a שוטה is פטור מכל המצוות?
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It might be that אנשי כנסת הגדולה that wrote the nusach were afraid that if everyone would say שלא עשני שוטה there would be too many ברכות לבטלה. 

[David Smith]

No I got it.

Mentioned earlier, I don't think that the women are spiritually closer to G-d is a valid answer. If you were thanking hashem for more Mitzvos you'd phrase it as such. Keep women out of it.

"Thank you Hashem, for giving me more mitzvos than a... a... ummmm... a wo... a woma... Never mind."

[aygart]

No I got it.

Mentioned earlier, I don't think that the women are spiritually closer to G-d is a valid answer. If you were thanking hashem for more Mitzvos you'd phrase it as such. Keep women out of it.

And to continue your example you'd say something like "I'm lucky I got to compete in a race" not even "I'm lucky I didn't get a head start" definitely not "I'm lucky I'm not one those who got a head start."

Everything is in comparison. More mitzvos than who or what?

[wayfe]

Everything is in comparison. More mitzvos than who or what?

Ok but it still makes no sense.

Say "thank you for making me a man"

Or "thank you for giving me more Mitzvos as a man"

Or even "thank you for giving me more Mitzvos than a woman."

Why would you say "thanks for not making me be a woman"?

[yuneeq]

No I got it.

Mentioned earlier, I don't think that the women are spiritually closer to G-d is a valid answer. If you were thanking hashem for more Mitzvos you'd phrase it as such. Keep women out of it.

And to continue your example you'd say something like "I'm lucky I got to compete in a race" not even "I'm lucky I didn't get a head start" definitely not "I'm lucky I'm not one those who got a head start."

Because all brochos are phrased exactly to their meaning?
Do you make Borei pri hagefen on grapes?
What about on wine? Why, it should be Borei shtiyas hayayin?

Or shehakol nihya bidvaro- maybe it should be shenatan li shtiya?
Hamotzi lechem min ha'aretz? Did you ever see someone take bread out of the ground?

[David Smith]

Ok but it still makes no sense.

Say "thank you for making me a man"

Or "thank you for giving me more Mitzvos as a man"

Or even "thank you for giving me more Mitzvos than a woman."

Why would you say "thanks for not making me be a woman"?

All of those three brachos (shelo asani goy, aved, veisha) are in ascending order of increased mitzvah obligation.

[ExGingi]

All of those three brachos (shelo asani goy, aved, veisha) are in ascending order of increased mitzvah obligation.

Which begs for my question above, why no שלא עשני שוטה? He doesn't even have 7 mitzvos?

[wayfe]

Because all brochos are phrased exactly to their meaning?
Do you make Borei pri hagefen on grapes?
What about on wine? Why, it should be Borei shtiyas hayayin?

Or shehakol nihya bidvaro- maybe it should be shenatan li shtiya?
Hamotzi lechem min ha'aretz? Did you ever see someone take bread out of the ground?

You got a point...

[David Smith]

Which begs for my question above, why no שלא עשני שוטה? He doesn't even have 7 mitzvos?

He has a petur. We're discussing someone with no command in the first place.

[joe1234]

Nobody ever thought it looked bad, before the woman's rights nut jobs decided it was a misogynist  statement.
As mentioned; superior doesn't mean men are better; it means it's better to be a man. (If you have to cars in a race, and one got a bad start; you wouldn't say that the car that got the head start was superior, but you would say that it's better to receive the head start if possible, and appreciate that opportunity.)

Woman are pre designed the way Hashem wanted them. I've heard someone joke that if women make sheasani keritzono, men should make a sheasani shelo keritzono. There is some truth to this joke. Men make the brachah that they have the extra work mitzvos. Women make the brachah that they are closer to Retzono than men are. By thanking Hashem for the extra work (in making a shelo asani isha), we are essentially saying Baruch Sheasani Shelo Keritzono.

thats definitely a nice pshat. but i still think my pshat is still superior-
the way i understand it is; when we discuss superiority there are really two things that need to be discussed. 1.physical sense 2. spiritual sense. IMHO spiritually and in regards to the next world they are both equal, but in this physical world there is no question that men are more dominant, obviously a healthy women doesn't mind not being dominant so there is no problem, but men enjoy it, therefore the need for men to say shelo osani isha.
in comparison in this world the more "choshuv" a person is, the more we need to respect them, even though in the next world you might be better off...

[Amusch]

http://forward.com/sisterhood/325373/a-new-sophisticated-haredi-view-on-gender/?attribution=author-article-listing-1-headline

[ExGingi]

He has a petur. We're discussing someone with no command in the first place.

No sense of humor on a Friday?

[David Smith]

No sense of humor on a Friday?

I was up way too late cleaning last night...