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« Last edited by gozalim on February 25, 2019, 12:00:36 AM »

Author Topic: New Coin Deal  (Read 244175 times)

Offline ben89

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #2130 on: October 06, 2018, 10:05:39 PM »
Food for thought - if commitment is only a pledge to sell the coin at a later point to a buying group, but the actual kinyan taking place at time of transfer...

And....

At the later point the coin is worth more then 1/6th of the price being offered...

Wouldn't there be a major shailah of oonah with the mechira being batel automatically.

You can be mochel oonah of course, but is mechila assumed as part of the commitment I wonder.
this question doesn’t make any sense to me

Online Coinguy

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #2131 on: October 06, 2018, 10:12:45 PM »
Food for thought - if commitment is only a pledge to sell the coin at a later point to a buying group, but the actual kinyan taking place at time of transfer...

And....

At the later point the coin is worth more then 1/6th of the price being offered...

Wouldn't there be a major shailah of oonah with the mechira being batel automatically.

You can be mochel oonah of course, but is mechila assumed as part of the commitment I wonder.

Would you be just as concerned if the price dropped after the release?

Offline ExGingi

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #2132 on: October 06, 2018, 10:15:07 PM »
http://chabadlibrary.org/books/adhaz/sh/sh6/3/1/index.htm

Quote
א אף על פי שאין המקח נגמר בדברים בלבד ורשאי כל אחד מהם לחזור בו מן הדין ואפילו קללת מי שפרע אינו צריך לקבל אם לא נתן מעות הרי החוזר בו ממחוסרי אמנה ואין רוח חכמים נוחה הימנו כי ראוי לאדם לעמוד בדבורו כמו שכתוב שארית ישראל לא יעשו עולה ולא ידברו כזב וגו'.

וירא שמים יש לו לקיים אפילו מחשבות לבו שאם חשב וגמר בלבו למכור לו בסכום זה והלה לא ידע ממחשבתו והוסיף לו על סכום זה לא יקח ממנו כי אם סכום זה שגמר בלבו לקיים מה שכתוב ודובר אמת בלבבו. וכן הלוקח שגמר בלבו לקנות בסכום כך וכך אין לו לחזור בו (וכן כל כיוצא בזה בשאר דברים שבין אדם לחבירו יש לו לקיים מחשבות לבו אם גמר בלבו לעשות איזו טובה לחבירו ויש בידו לעשותה אבל צרכי עצמו כל שאין בהם סרך מצוה אינו צריך לקיים אפילו מוצא שפתיו):
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline Yeki89

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #2133 on: October 07, 2018, 12:12:02 AM »
I saw on eBay that coins are selling for over 2400

Offline sddd

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #2134 on: October 07, 2018, 01:03:03 AM »
http://chabadlibrary.org/books/adhaz/sh/sh6/3/1/index.htm

Is that referring to an oonah situation or simply someone who backs out?

And yes, the question holds true if the price went down more then a 1/6th.

 Mechila would then be required on the seller's part.

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #2135 on: October 07, 2018, 08:01:17 AM »
Is that referring to an oonah situation or simply someone who backs out?

And yes, the question holds true if the price went down more then a 1/6th.

 Mechila would then be required on the seller's part.

Well then just like 99% of the people still want the groups to take their coin when it drops - and they always do, I would argue that they’re agreeing to sell the coin regardless of oonah either way since they don’t want to take the risk.

Offline sddd

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #2136 on: October 07, 2018, 08:35:07 AM »
Well then just like 99% of the people still want the groups to take their coin when it drops - and they always do, I would argue that they’re agreeing to sell the coin regardless of oonah either way since they don’t want to take the risk.

"They always do" - true, but a mechila at the time of the transaction is required by the seller.

Likewise, when it goes up, a mechila at that point in time is required by the buyer.

The large number of people that wish to back seems to indicate that they are not interested in being mochel, which they are halachically entitled not to do.

Incidentally, on a practical level, the coins will never go down by more then 1/6th as they are returnable to the mint.

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #2137 on: October 07, 2018, 08:54:36 AM »
You made a commitment so you honor it. Do you really want to blame this on religion?
I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline ExGingi

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #2138 on: October 07, 2018, 09:18:24 AM »
Is that referring to an oonah situation or simply someone who backs out?

And yes, the question holds true if the price went down more then a 1/6th.

 Mechila would then be required on the seller's part.
I am not well versed in this, but is אונאה applicable at all בדבר שלא בא לעולם?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline gingyguy

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #2139 on: October 07, 2018, 09:28:58 AM »
I am not well versed in this, but is אונאה applicable at all בדבר שלא בא לעולם?
even if it doesn't apply by  דבר שלא בא לעולם , i would think the fact that the coins were already minted means that it is בא לעולם.
May you slide down the banister of happiness & get many splinters of success up your career.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #2140 on: October 07, 2018, 09:32:23 AM »
even if it doesn't apply by  דבר שלא בא לעולם , i would think the fact that the coins were already minted means that it is בא לעולם.
Though at that point the seller isn't מוחזק until there's a shipping confirmation.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline gingyguy

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #2141 on: October 07, 2018, 09:51:41 AM »
Though at that point the seller isn't מוחזק until there's a shipping confirmation.
true but not sure if that counts as דבר שלא בא לעולם
May you slide down the banister of happiness & get many splinters of success up your career.

Offline sddd

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #2142 on: October 07, 2018, 11:46:59 AM »
You made a commitment so you honor it. Do you really want to blame this on religion?

The question is, is there a lav being violated here or not.

For the record I am expressly mochel and I do honor my commitments, both when buying and selling, as I understand it to be a implicit mechila when agreeing - the question is if everyone else does.

The fact that many people wish to back out of their commitment seems to indicate that they never agreed to such a scenario.

Since the kinyan did not yet take place, the buyer would have an issue of oonah unless there is mechila.

Offline 12HRS

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #2143 on: October 07, 2018, 01:54:06 PM »
The fact that many people wish to back out of their commitment seems to indicate that they never agreed to such a scenario. that $ changes peoples actions

FTFY

Offline beeweegee

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #2144 on: October 07, 2018, 02:04:53 PM »
FTFY
Agreed. It really hurt when I sent my coin to the company I committed to for a commision a fraction of what I could make now (and I would be lying if I said I didn't briefly consider not sending it...), but a deal's a deal - my word is worth far more than a few hundred dollars - and for the record, I would assume that the value of the reputation of the company is the same to its owner - they would honor their commitment if the value dropped, too.