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« Last edited by yos9694 on August 18, 2021, 01:46:13 PM »

Author Topic: New Coin Deal  (Read 1228752 times)

Offline Yitzshpitz

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #3240 on: November 18, 2019, 02:15:16 PM »
The only thing I can think off is that I had another account with another CC attached to it with same billing address, but no orders thru it. In other words it was just listed on the profile. Can this be a reason for cancelation even though there were no orders from it ?

I also had one of my orders cancelled. When I finally got through to someone at the mint they said the reason was because the billing address didnt match the shipping address, even though I did add that address as a billing address for that credit card.

Like everyone said here there is no way to know for sure

Online Davidthebest

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #3241 on: November 18, 2019, 02:23:25 PM »
I also had one of my orders cancelled. When I finally got through to someone at the mint they said the reason was because the billing address didnt match the shipping address, even though I did add that address as a billing address for that credit card.

Like everyone said here there is no way to know for sure
Was the language of  your cancelation email same as mine ?

Offline yos9694

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #3242 on: November 18, 2019, 03:29:43 PM »
Guys, take your pick.

1. you are a ganev
2. You receive a mi shepara curse
3. You are considered dishonest and ein ruach chachomim nocha heimenu
4. You are stam a liar
5. all of the above
Of course don't forget the chillul hashem of your justifying your dishonesty in public.

There's no mi shepara if the buyer didn't pay yet. And also because there is no set price for the object in the market (which is the source of the issue in the first place). It could possibly be mechusar emunah, but it probably is not even that in this case because the buyer has a heter to say that the circumstances changed dramatically. If the buyer wants to use this halacha to compel the sale against the seller's wishes, he should have paid in advance.

Stick to saying it's a moral issue of keeping your word.

ETA: Choshen Mishpat 204-7

2nd ETA: Obviously I don't mean to make people upset by seeming to support people who would back out. I don't support that. But you shouldn't be bringing down mi shepara.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2019, 03:39:50 PM by yos9694 »

Offline tzifanya54

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #3243 on: November 18, 2019, 03:49:07 PM »
With all the beating up on PFS....
 I would like to say he is a class act. He is matching up to $300 as he said. He has always been fair and honest. I think he gets beaten up a lot over this kind of stuff. Bottom line as the buyer he by definition has less recourse than the sellers do. I feel like he tries his hardest to be fair in all circumstances. It is only fair and right to reciprocate. In my particular case I signed up with him on the first day, I wouldn't back out because I am honest. He could have said no to matching and he would have still gotten my coin, yet he kept his word @ $100 loss per coin.

Offline CountValentine

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #3244 on: November 18, 2019, 04:11:57 PM »
With all the beating up on PFS....
 I would like to say he is a class act. He is matching up to $300 as he said. He has always been fair and honest. I think he gets beaten up a lot over this kind of stuff. Bottom line as the buyer he by definition has less recourse than the sellers do. I feel like he tries his hardest to be fair in all circumstances. It is only fair and right to reciprocate. In my particular case I signed up with him on the first day, I wouldn't back out because I am honest. He could have said no to matching and he would have still gotten my coin, yet he kept his word @ $100 loss per coin.
I hear what you are saying but when the coins are going for 600+ it is going to be a hard sell.
The bottom line is when you commit to something you honor that commitment and learn from the experience.
Only on DDF does 24/6 mean 24/5/half/half

Offline sruly

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #3245 on: November 18, 2019, 04:38:28 PM »
I hear what you are saying but when the coins are going for 600+ it is going to be a hard sell.
I have no problem selling my 4 coins to PFS at our agreed upon price.
Still remember the coins that went from $1500 to $4300 and sold at locked in rate as well.

Offline CountValentine

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #3246 on: November 18, 2019, 04:47:41 PM »
I have no problem selling my 4 coins to PFS at our agreed upon price.
No one should. You agree on something and that is it.
For the next deal you might want to look at those that have paid consistently higher.
Only on DDF does 24/6 mean 24/5/half/half

Offline ae123

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #3247 on: November 18, 2019, 04:48:06 PM »
There's no mi shepara if the buyer didn't pay yet. And also because there is no set price for the object in the market (which is the source of the issue in the first place). It could possibly be mechusar emunah, but it probably is not even that in this case because the buyer has a heter to say that the circumstances changed dramatically. If the buyer wants to use this halacha to compel the sale against the seller's wishes, he should have paid in advance.

Stick to saying it's a moral issue of keeping your word.

ETA: Choshen Mishpat 204-7

2nd ETA: Obviously I don't mean to make people upset by seeming to support people who would back out. I don't support that. But you shouldn't be bringing down mi shepara.
Way up-thread I already noted it's Mechusarei Emanah (and not Mi SheParah).
However, I also noted that opting-in may be like signing a contract which makes it much more than Mechusarei Emanah

Offline ae123

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #3248 on: November 18, 2019, 04:49:18 PM »
Honestly unless ppl sent confirmation numbers can’t imagine it’s easy to find out who backed out and who just didn’t get lucky. And even if they did, might have been cancelled by mint (though I haven’t heard of mass cancellations ).
Exactly.
Case in point: me!
My order didn't go through yet I've been one of PFS's strongest supporters here on DDF.

Offline tzifanya54

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #3249 on: November 18, 2019, 04:53:59 PM »
I hear what you are saying but when the coins are going for 600+ it is going to be a hard sell.
The bottom line is when you commit to something you honor that commitment and learn from the experience.
Correct, and I did not know it was going to be such a big deal when I signed up. He is definitely being fair based on his full disclosures before opt in.

Offline sruly

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #3250 on: November 18, 2019, 05:16:50 PM »
Honestly unless ppl sent confirmation numbers can’t imagine it’s easy to find out who backed out and who just didn’t get lucky. And even if they did, might have been cancelled by mint (though I haven’t heard of mass cancellations ).
until he buys your coin on eBay or from another middle man.

Offline yos9694

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #3251 on: November 18, 2019, 05:32:51 PM »
However, I also noted that opting-in may be like signing a contract which makes it much more than Mechusarei Emanah. The seller never paid, the object doesn't have a set price, and the circumstances changed after the verbal agreement.
Not al pi hapacha it isnt. Its even less than mechusar emunah because triye tara, which was what I was adding.

Offline zale

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #3252 on: November 18, 2019, 05:33:05 PM »
until he buys your coin on eBay or from another middle man.

"I was selling it for a friend"

Offline ae123

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #3253 on: November 18, 2019, 05:35:08 PM »

Online Davidthebest

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #3254 on: November 18, 2019, 05:37:52 PM »
They probably oversold by a bit. I'd guess they filled the orders in the order they came in. Doubt there's really anything you can do.
Just spent with them an hour over the phone , they say that the reason it was cancelled was bcs the info didn't match. Which is absolutely false. My cc info exactly matched my shipping address.

Offline zale

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #3255 on: November 18, 2019, 05:43:02 PM »
Not al pi hapacha it isnt. Its even less than mechusar emunah because triye tara, which was what I was adding.

I would think that there is a difference between just opting-in vs opting-in and then adding your confirmation number.

When you opt-in, the dealer is aware that you may or may not end up getting the coin. In fact, it was so hard to get that probably only 50% succeeded. For that reason, the dealer can't say that you made a promise that you can certainly keep (safek). Furthermore, it's difficult to say that there is a binding contract according to law or halacha, since you can always say that when you purchased the coin, you did it for yourself outside of the ones you were going to get for the dealer, as you never told the dealer that every coin you get that day is for him, nor did you tell him that this coin from this account is his.

However, once you get the order confirmation and give it over to the dealer by inputting it into the portal, at that point you are agreeing to sell THAT coin to the dealer, thus locking in the contract.

Of course, both are unethical, but if you want to get into the nitty gritty, I would say there is a clear difference between the two.

Online aygart

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #3256 on: November 18, 2019, 05:43:11 PM »
There's no mi shepara if the buyer didn't pay yet. And also because there is no set price for the object in the market (which is the source of the issue in the first place). It could possibly be mechusar emunah, but it probably is not even that in this case because the buyer has a heter to say that the circumstances changed dramatically. If the buyer wants to use this halacha to compel the sale against the seller's wishes, he should have paid in advance.

Stick to saying it's a moral issue of keeping your word.

ETA: Choshen Mishpat 204-7

2nd ETA: Obviously I don't mean to make people upset by seeming to support people who would back out. I don't support that. But you shouldn't be bringing down mi shepara.
Agreed, and I think I have noted that earlier in this or other threads, but on the other hand in some cases having purchased for someone else can actually be a kinyan for them which would make selling it for other genaiva. A lot of this depends on exact cases.

ETA I really should just keep out of choshen mishpat as I have written earlier. The origianl post you quoted I had thought was fairly obvious to not have been meant to be discussing halacha. I don't think the all of the above option is even possible.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2019, 05:46:15 PM by aygart »
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline meme

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #3257 on: November 18, 2019, 05:46:24 PM »
Late Friday afternoon, the U.S. Mint released the following statements to CoinNews:

"Yesterday, the Mint catalog website had more than 150,000 unique visitors and 1.6 million page views in the first hour of sales of the American Eagle 2019 One Ounce Silver Enhanced Reverse Proof Coin (19XE). For context, the catalog website’s previous highest traffic and page views were for the Apollo 11 product launch, when we had 124,000 visitors in one day and 863,000 page views in one hour. We are pleased with the numismatic community’s response to this product. The volume of traffic did briefly slow down our site response. However, after the first two minutes we were able to process over 1800 orders per minute on average. Completed orders were processed until all inventory was sold. Additionally, we identified approximately 5% of traffic as coming from bots, including 3% of traffic from a single IP address, of which zero orders were processed."

"At the moment of launch, there were 99,000 people online and 4700 callers waiting to purchase the American Eagle 2019 One Ounce Silver Enhanced Reverse Proof Coin (19XE). Completed orders were processed until all inventory was sold. We are constantly seeking feedback from our customers, and rest assured your voice is being heard."

Offline CountValentine

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #3258 on: November 18, 2019, 06:06:23 PM »
including 3% of traffic from a single IP address,
WOW!
Only on DDF does 24/6 mean 24/5/half/half

Offline Freecountry

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #3259 on: November 18, 2019, 06:31:44 PM »
You can call it whatever you want....
it's called a מי שפרע etc. On your part