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« Last edited by yos9694 on August 18, 2021, 01:46:13 PM »

Author Topic: New Coin Deal  (Read 1229175 times)

Offline mileagejunkie

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Re: Re: US Mint Coins For Sale (Individuals only)
« Reply #3440 on: November 20, 2019, 09:47:05 PM »

Is said Rav willing to come out and say that is the psak for everyone? If so, PFS should partner with him :) I asked someone very competent who offered to forward the case, if you're not interested then feel free to ignore it.

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Re: US Mint Coins For Sale (Individuals only)
« Reply #3441 on: November 20, 2019, 09:55:42 PM »
Is said Rav willing to come out and say that is the psak for everyone? If so, PFS should partner with him :) I asked someone very competent who offered to forward the case, if you're not interested then feel free to ignore it.
How about you move/post it in the religious question thread?
What if every thread I turned into a political thread? Wait that is a bad example.  :)
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Offline Live N Learn

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #3442 on: November 20, 2019, 10:13:02 PM »
They finally started moving this morning.
He literally knows the entire red coin book by heart, and spends all of his (granted, minimal) income on coins...
Sell it, and give him a few hundred box to spend on other coins.
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Offline AJK

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #3443 on: November 20, 2019, 10:26:37 PM »
It is silly to gauge whether investments are good by whether they outpace inflation. If you had $1000 in 1995 and that turned to $1668 today (even guaranteed, which coins are definitely not), that would be a poor investment. If it turned to $2500 with risk, that would still be a poor investment (3.9% return). The S&P went up almost 6x since then and the 30 yr treasury was 7% in 1995.

You're quoting the wrong person. I never suggested inflation was an appropriate metric by which to judge investments.
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Offline EJB

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #3444 on: November 20, 2019, 10:34:44 PM »
You're quoting the wrong person. I never suggested inflation was an appropriate metric by which to judge investments.

Eh, if inflation were to revert to the long-term average, the total return would match that of the 95 coin. No need to move south.

Offline myi

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #3445 on: November 20, 2019, 10:56:38 PM »
You're quoting the wrong person. I never suggested inflation was an appropriate metric by which to judge investments.
   It's good to see you around In this thread, was waiting for members like you to show up here, who have their head on their shoulders. ( Or at least it appears you do from the way you express yourself in the posts throughout the forum.)
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Offline yos9694

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Re: Re: US Mint Coins For Sale (Individuals only)
« Reply #3446 on: November 21, 2019, 11:04:54 AM »
Is said Rav willing to come out and say that is the psak for everyone? If so, PFS should partner with him :) I asked someone very competent who offered to forward the case, if you're not interested then feel free to ignore it.

You should forward it, and then try to get it written up in Business Halacha. This story is a great case study. There's a huge lack of understanding about Choshen Mishpat unfortunately and being mefarsem real stories is valuable. Not enough people learn ChM. It's nearly impossible for people who are involved in a case to accept when the halacha doesn't say what their emotions decided it should say.

Offline jackblack

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #3447 on: November 21, 2019, 11:12:52 AM »
I asked a big Choshen Mishpat Dayan in Lakewood for a psak (I can disclose his name via PM if anyone is interested) and after studying their back and forth emails he said I can 100% back out of my commitment to PFS. I ended up sending my coin anyway to them because I felt that was the right thing to do, but just so everyone knows there are poskim who won't call you all the names that the chashuva members here are calling people with this nisayon.

Personally I will never commit to PFS again after this and I know many others are in the same boat as me so I believe they lost out in the long run for not offering higher value for this coin and thus leaving all their buyers (including even them) with a bad taste in their mouths...
« Last Edit: November 21, 2019, 11:18:02 AM by jackblack »

Offline Agoldsc1

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #3448 on: November 21, 2019, 11:14:47 AM »
I asked a big Choshen Mishpat Dayan in Lakewood for a psak (I can disclose his name via PM if anyone is interested) and after studying their back and forth emails he said I can 100% back out of my commitment to PFS. I ended up sending my coin anyway to them because I felt that was the right thing to do, but just so everyone knows there are poskim who won't call you all the names that the chashuva members here are calling people with this nisayon.

Personally I will never commit to PFS again after this and I know many others are in the same boat as me so I believe they lost out in the long run for not offering higher value for this coin...

Without providing his name, can you explain the reasoning?

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #3449 on: November 21, 2019, 11:37:03 AM »
I asked a big Choshen Mishpat Dayan in Lakewood for a psak (I can disclose his name via PM if anyone is interested) and after studying their back and forth emails he said I can 100% back out of my commitment to PFS.
Reason given ?

Offline yos9694

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #3450 on: November 21, 2019, 11:39:51 AM »
Without providing his name, can you explain the reasoning?

There's nothing here compelling you to send the coin except keeping your word, which is not a halachik obligation. Need the object to be in the seller's hand and money to be exchanged for the dealer to make even a pseudo-kinyan. That doesn't mean you're off the hook by social standards.

Offline Dan

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #3451 on: November 21, 2019, 11:44:28 AM »
Hindsight is 20/20.
Easy to say you regret it when the price goes up, but what about the several times the price crashed?

Is the halacha that there is nothing wrong with using PFS as a free insurance policy?
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Online TimT

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #3452 on: November 21, 2019, 11:45:56 AM »
Hindsight is 20/20.
Easy to say you regret it when the price goes up, but what about the several times the price crashed?
I’m sure they all emailed PFS begging him to pay them less.

Offline Agoldsc1

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #3453 on: November 21, 2019, 11:57:59 AM »
There's nothing here compelling you to send the coin except keeping your word, which is not a halachik obligation. Need the object to be in the seller's hand and money to be exchanged for the dealer to make even a pseudo-kinyan. That doesn't mean you're off the hook by social standards.

So any pre-orders are not binding halachically speaking, even though both parties agree on a price, and acknowledge that the item is not currently in the seller's possession?

Offline yos9694

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #3454 on: November 21, 2019, 11:58:04 AM »
Hindsight is 20/20.
Easy to say you regret it when the price goes up, but what about the several times the price crashed?

Is the halacha that there is nothing wrong with using PFS as a free insurance policy?

That's another question worth asking a dayan. The halacha may not be what your emotions tell you. It's completely possible that the seller has an unfair loophole to "use them as insurance" al pi halacha because no halachik kinyan was transacted.

Offline yos9694

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #3455 on: November 21, 2019, 12:03:27 PM »
So any pre-orders are not binding halachically speaking, even though both parties agree on a price, and acknowledge that the item is not currently in the seller's possession?

Look, I'm not anything even close to a dayan or posek, so I can't debate it or expound, but that's apparently the case. The buyer missed a step here. Knowing this, the buyer should in future try to do something that obligates the seller al pi halacha - instead of trying to force the halacha to fit into your own parameters.

Meanwhile, everything tells me that yashrus should compel someone who committed to complete the transaction they promised to do. However, we know that when it comes to money negius very often affects a person's sense of yashrus.

Offline Agoldsc1

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #3456 on: November 21, 2019, 12:07:50 PM »
Look, I'm not anything even close to a dayan or posek, so I can't debate it or expound, but that's apparently the case. The buyer missed a step here. Knowing this, the buyer should in future try to do something that obligates the seller al pi halacha - instead of trying to force the halacha to fit into your own parameters.

Meanwhile, everything tells me that yashrus should compel someone who committed to complete the transaction they promised to do. However, we know that when it comes to money negius very often affects a person's sense of yashrus.

Would be interesting to hear what this Dayan suggests that the buyer do next time in order to make the transaction hallachically binding. They can always wait until the buyer has the coin in hand, but then he's just buying it on the open marker. Maybe if the offer is for the coin, plus an small token item that most sellers already have in-hand (a quarter, napkin, writing utensil, etc...)

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #3457 on: November 21, 2019, 12:12:49 PM »
The buyer missed a step here.
Which step ?

Offline yos9694

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #3458 on: November 21, 2019, 12:13:44 PM »
Would be interesting to hear what this Dayan suggests that the buyer do next time in order to make the transaction hallachically binding. They can always wait until the buyer has the coin in hand, but then he's just buying it on the open marker. Maybe if the offer is for the coin, plus an small token item that most sellers already have in-hand (a quarter, napkin, writing utensil, etc...)

https://businesshalacha.com/en/contact

Offline yos9694

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #3459 on: November 21, 2019, 12:14:11 PM »
Which step ?

The step that creates a kinyan or a pseudo-kinyan