New Coin Deal

[lubaby]

Personally I will never commit to PFS again after this and I know many others are in the same boat as me so I believe they lost out in the long run for not offering higher value for this coin and thus leaving all their buyers (including even them) with a bad taste in their mouths...

Why is this not part of any discussion?

If (example) PFS had a pre-order purchase order from a dealer for $400 a piece (when they started the "offering buyers $100, then $185, then up to $300 (including coin price?)", do we think they they turned around to their dealer and said "pay me double, since I can sell it your competition for more"?

Or did their profit margin just go down (and profit margin allows them the float on speculation / risk of other deals failing that they lose money on)?

[LoLo]

Is the halacha that there is nothing wrong with using PFS as a free insurance policy?

It's not really a guaranteed insurance (Halachically) as I'm assuming PFS has the same right to back out if the price dropped, It's just that PFS sticks to his word while the buyer doesn't.

[kayef]

Personally I will never commit to PFS again after this and I know many others are in the same boat as me so I believe they lost out in the long run for not offering higher value for this coin and thus leaving all their buyers (including even them) with a bad taste in their mouths...

I’ve committed to PFS in the past. One of the main reasons I didn’t commit this time was the low up front expense. If the initial cost would be over $1k I would have committed and probably would do so in the future as well (unless there is good indication that the price will rise substantially).

[yos9694]

A couple of my own opinions
1) PFS has just as much right to back out if the coin price went down. They wouldn't and didn't but not because of halachik concerns.
2) PFS is a broker in these situations. They don't claim to know what the coins are worth, just trying to profit on the bid/ask spread. That's a bad place to be if you allow your end buyer to misprice you and brokers have been crushed by mistakes like those. It's really not something to blame the retail seller for, there is always a huge imbalance of information.

[jackblack]

Without providing his name, can you explain the reasoning?

Reason given ?

Similar reason to what he gave:

There's nothing here compelling you to send the coin except keeping your word, which is not a halachik obligation. Need the object to be in the seller's hand and money to be exchanged for the dealer to make even a pseudo-kinyan. That doesn't mean you're off the hook by social standards.

Like I said, I did end up sending my coin to PFS but not because of Halacha reasons, it just felt like the right thing to do.

But I still think PFS could have handled this way better (not saying they were obligated to) and payed out a bit more to their buyers while still making hefty profits and with that they would have bought themselves customers for life. Instead we have this cr*p show happening now across multiple forum boards (including the Eino Yehudim)...

[Agoldsc1]

But I still think PFS could have handled this way better (not saying they were obligated to) and payed out a bit more to their buyers while still making hefty profits and with that they would have bought themselves customers for life. Instead we have this cr*p show happening now across multiple forum boards (including the Eino Yehudim)...

Who said that they are making such a large spread? Maybe they themselves committed to selling them for $350 or $400 (because they were expecting to purchase them at their agreed price)?

[Dan]

Who said that they are making such a large spread? Maybe they themselves committed to selling them for $350 or $400 (because they were expecting to purchase them at their agreed price)?

Yup, this is extremely likely as they get purchase orders beforehand.

[jackblack]

Who said that they are making such a large spread? Maybe they themselves committed to selling them for $350 or $400 (because they were expecting to purchase them at their agreed price)?

I believe they pretty much knew these coins will skyrocket after they sold and the deal they did with their resell contacts were priced accordingly in their favor. They are doing this a long time and are not naive like the rest of us.

They were really aggressive with their marketing emails and they were matching competing offers left and right (before the release date) in a matter of minutes, even if the competing guys were offering double the amount of payouts so they knew this was big.

But the fact is that in their public ads they were offering half the commission that other reputable companies were offering before the coin went on sale so I think they really took advantage of the uneducated coin buyers (especially the DD crowd who only saw the ads on the MS) to lock in the really low selling price banking on most of their buyers not knowing about the better deals available elsewhere.

[Mootkim]

Would be interesting to hear what this Dayan suggests that the buyer do next time in order to make the transaction hallachically binding. They can always wait until the buyer has the coin in hand, but then he's just buying it on the open marker. Maybe if the offer is for the coin, plus an small token item that most sellers already have in-hand (a quarter, napkin, writing utensil, etc...)

If they would give some money in advance I think that would bind with Mi Shepara.

[jackblack]

I believe they pretty much knew these coins will skyrocket after they sold and the deal they did with their resell contacts were priced accordingly in their favor. They are doing this a long time and are not naive like the rest of us.

They were really aggressive with their marketing emails and they were matching competing offers left and right (before the release date) in a matter of minutes, even if the competing guys were offering double the amount of payouts so they knew this was big.

But the fact is they were offering half the commission that other reputable companies were offering before the coin went on sale so I think they really took advantage of the uneducated coin buyers (especially the DD crowd who saw the ads on the MS) to lock in the really low selling price banking on most of their buyers not knowing about the better deals available elsewhere.

Good for them that they made the big bucks now but time will tell if taking advantage of naive buyers will hurt them in the long run...

[CountValentine]

Anyone watching the impeachment hearings? Like to get the Kool-Aid perspective on it.

[zale]

If they would give some money in advance I think that would bind with Mi Shepara.

If the dealer gave money in advance, what exactly is he paying for? I don't see how this can ever be a true kinyan, but I would be very interested to hear if someone asked a rav.

[Agoldsc1]

If the dealer gave money in advance, what exactly is he paying for? I don't see how this can ever be a true kinyan, but I would be very interested to hear if someone asked a rav.

A deposit towards the purchase. The issue with this is logistic, because not everyone who signs up will get a coin, and then good luck trying to get that deposit back from everyone.

[Mootkim]

A deposit towards the purchase. The issue with this is logistic, because not everyone who signs up will get a coin, and then good luck trying to get that deposit back from everyone.

Unless the coin is considered lo ba'ah l'eolam prior to order (and creation by the mint).

[gozalim]

A deposit towards the purchase. The issue with this is logistic, because not everyone who signs up will get a coin, and then good luck trying to get that deposit back from everyone.

it need not be a significant amount, a prutah or a few. would be cheaper than some of what they already spend in advertising

[Mootkim]

it need not be a significant amount, a prutah or a few. would be cheaper than some of what they already spend in advertising

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1363912/jewish/Mechirah-Chapter-Seven.htm

[zale]

it need not be a significant amount, a prutah or a few. would be cheaper than some of what they already spend in advertising

I'm no halachic expert, but I don't understand how a kinyan can be made on something that does not exist. By not exist I mean something you did not buy yet and something you may be unable to buy.

Furthermore, if the dealer never specified WHICH coin he's paying for, i.e. from which account the order has to be made, the buyer of the coin can always say that the coin he purchased was not part of the agreement and that he intended to purchase a different one to fulfill the agreement.

[yos9694]

I'm no halachic expert, but I don't understand how a kinyan can be made on something that does not exist. By not exist I mean something you did not buy yet and something you may be unable to buy.

Furthermore, if the dealer never specified WHICH coin he's paying for, i.e. from which account the order has to be made, the buyer of the coin can always say that the coin he purchased was not part of the agreement and that he intended to purchase a different one to fulfill the agreement.

You're focusing on one of the (at least) three problems with PFS's business model that prevent him from having a halachik claim. Retail seller didn't have the object yet, no fair market price existed, and no payment was made. Depending on how many of those problems you resolve, there might be a mechusar emunah issue or even mi shepara, but in the current business model none of those apply.

The bottom line here is that PFS had a business model that never worked al pi halacha, but up until now it didn't matter. But with the frenzied competition doubling and tripling his offers this time (that we've never encountered before), and with his lagging response choosing to match (never beat) upon request (which is questionable ethics in its own right), most of his potential buyers saw a tempting reason to abandon the deal. After all, why bother reaching out to ask for a match - at best he'll match it, and if you happened to not see the best deal out there he's not going to tell you about it. I'm sure based on this experience he'll have to consider changes to his business model for future.

[CountValentine]

Are you guys done yet with this BS. 

Verified sales on ebay at 1100+

[Dan]

Are you guys done yet with this BS. 

Verified sales on ebay at 1100+

ebay is a cesspool. Are dealers paying 1100?