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« Last edited by yos9694 on August 18, 2021, 01:46:13 PM »

Author Topic: New Coin Deal  (Read 1326947 times)

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #7860 on: October 10, 2023, 07:45:34 PM »
How much of this is the performers and TicketSmarter simply offloading the risk to resellers and ticket buyers, by just offering much more performances when existing ones sell out?

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #7861 on: October 10, 2023, 08:50:55 PM »
I was initially against replying to articles/blogs regarding our failed deal, but I figured that this is the one forum that deserves to hear from us directly.

I do not anticipate doing a Q&A or a full back-and-forth here, so please keep that in mind if you're responding to this.

I just wanted to share several facts, points, thoughts… in no particular order.


1. This was a failed deal. It's on us. We're taking a massive hit on it.

2. Our SOLE priority from the minute they announced new shows, and prices tanked, was to make sure that every member who bought tickets for us is made whole.

3. We did indeed negotiate with members who bought resell tickets by mistake to share some of the loss. We offered them the FULL "normal" cost PLUS 50% of the "extra" they paid. The quantity of tickets that were resold was - b”H - a real small percentage of our overall inventory/tickets. Even with members taking some of the losses, we estimate that we're going to incur an ~80% loss on these resell tickets. Almost all resell tickets were purchased after we sent out emails advising not to buy them.

4. The ONLY people from whom we declined to take their tickets entirely were those who did not opt into our deal or those who initially told us they had bought X quantity of tickets and then, hours/days later, changed their numbers and wanted us to take more tickets. In the latter case, we still took their initial quantity of tickets.

5. The member in the quoted article was one of the above cases. He filled out our form stating that he had 90 tickets, and when we synced his accounts, he had dozens more. He also didn’t follow one of our deal terms of forwarding the Ticketmaster confirmations. The article doesn't mention that we still offered to take all of his initial quantity of tickets for his full cost.

6. As of now, we have paid almost 90% of our members their entire cost.

7. We still hope to pay some members commissions – those who opted to wait until their tickets sell, enabling us not to have to front the money.

8. We know that we adjusted our "deal" a couple of times. We had no choice – we needed to stay solvent so that we could get our members their cost back to pay their credit cards on time. Although, as stated, most are paid, and things are under control, this was not a given at all.

9. With what we were facing, lesser people (a lesser company) would have just shuttered their doors.


Moving forward, we learned a lot.

For years, our model was pure arbitrage and sharing ~50-75% of our guaranteed/locked-in profits with our members - no risk to us or our members.

We had no coin deals from April 2022 until just a few months ago, so we started this new division. We had some successes with Sofi and verified codes, but then this came around. There are other risk-free things that we’re working on, and we pledge to return and stick with our risk-free arbitrage model.

Again, 98% of our members will walk away from this deal having recouped at least their entire cost and have earned credit card spending as well. For such a travesty, we are considering this a massive win.

For the small percentage that will end up taking a loss on this deal, we feel bad about the outcome, we honestly do.

For those that did indeed take a loss and would still want to work with us in the future, we commit to doing our best to make things right. At this point, though, we took measures that were required to stay afloat and to make all our members who followed our deal correctly whole.

I didn't opt in but have a bunch of TS that are basically worthless now. They changed the timing on the concert - do you have any opinion/advice if there is any
 way to get Ticketmaster to refund based on that point? So far theyve refused.

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #7862 on: October 16, 2023, 02:36:31 PM »
Anyone know anything about the new coin 23 EM that apparently just shipped?
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #7863 on: October 16, 2023, 02:48:42 PM »
1. Me and my wife had dozens of deals with PFS before and even after opting into their deal it was obvious we can sell the coins for much bigger profit on ebay we never reneged on any deals.
2. We opted into the deal and followed all the rules of the deal. 
3. Some of the tickets we bought were resell tickets and they were bought BEFORE any notification from PFS to buy only standard tickets. As soon as we received such instructions we made sure not to buy them even it's pretty difficult to check your emails in the heat of the moment and the original deal did not include instructions to keep checking emails or the tickets you buy might not be honored. Also, expecting every email to go through in time when every minute counts is a not very reliable way to communicate major changes to the deal that might create huge losses.
4. We have never participated in such ticket deal before and never knew that it's a "common knowledge" that we are not allowed to buy resell tickets. PFS instructions before the deal did not include this "small" detail. PFS instructions were to keep checking ticketmaster for the newly released tickets long after the first batch is released. If they would not give such instructions I think a number of resell tickets bought will be negligible.
5. PFS explained that they refuse to honor resell ticket is because it was partially our "mistake". They gave us an option to except 50% payment of the loss on resell tickets (we lost this way over $1k) plus they have confiscated the profit of $25 per ticket for ALL tickets we bought (around $2.5k) as a condition of any partial payment for the resell tickets. The only way PFS was ready to pay us even partially for ANY tickets was our agreement to not demand any profit on the standard tickets or not to demand any payment to reimburse for the resell tickets. .
6. PFS stated that on this deal they did not make any official contract, so our opting in to the deal and following their instructions is not considered a contract and any money from them is basically a good will gesture.
7. By mistake we bought a couple of thousand dollars in tickets for a different Travis show. Obviously, PFS refused even to discuss them because it was our mistake. While I understand that this show was not included in the deal I do think better original instructions would prevent such situation.

Do you think PFS is ethical/legal/kosher in this situation?

 
I was initially against replying to articles/blogs regarding our failed deal, but I figured that this is the one forum that deserves to hear from us directly.

I do not anticipate doing a Q&A or a full back-and-forth here, so please keep that in mind if you're responding to this.

I just wanted to share several facts, points, thoughts… in no particular order.


1. This was a failed deal. It's on us. We're taking a massive hit on it.

2. Our SOLE priority from the minute they announced new shows, and prices tanked, was to make sure that every member who bought tickets for us is made whole.

3. We did indeed negotiate with members who bought resell tickets by mistake to share some of the loss. We offered them the FULL "normal" cost PLUS 50% of the "extra" they paid. The quantity of tickets that were resold was - b”H - a real small percentage of our overall inventory/tickets. Even with members taking some of the losses, we estimate that we're going to incur an ~80% loss on these resell tickets. Almost all resell tickets were purchased after we sent out emails advising not to buy them.

4. The ONLY people from whom we declined to take their tickets entirely were those who did not opt into our deal or those who initially told us they had bought X quantity of tickets and then, hours/days later, changed their numbers and wanted us to take more tickets. In the latter case, we still took their initial quantity of tickets.

5. The member in the quoted article was one of the above cases. He filled out our form stating that he had 90 tickets, and when we synced his accounts, he had dozens more. He also didn’t follow one of our deal terms of forwarding the Ticketmaster confirmations. The article doesn't mention that we still offered to take all of his initial quantity of tickets for his full cost.

6. As of now, we have paid almost 90% of our members their entire cost.

7. We still hope to pay some members commissions – those who opted to wait until their tickets sell, enabling us not to have to front the money.

8. We know that we adjusted our "deal" a couple of times. We had no choice – we needed to stay solvent so that we could get our members their cost back to pay their credit cards on time. Although, as stated, most are paid, and things are under control, this was not a given at all.

9. With what we were facing, lesser people (a lesser company) would have just shuttered their doors.


Moving forward, we learned a lot.

For years, our model was pure arbitrage and sharing ~50-75% of our guaranteed/locked-in profits with our members - no risk to us or our members.

We had no coin deals from April 2022 until just a few months ago, so we started this new division. We had some successes with Sofi and verified codes, but then this came around. There are other risk-free things that we’re working on, and we pledge to return and stick with our risk-free arbitrage model.

Again, 98% of our members will walk away from this deal having recouped at least their entire cost and have earned credit card spending as well. For such a travesty, we are considering this a massive win.

For the small percentage that will end up taking a loss on this deal, we feel bad about the outcome, we honestly do.

For those that did indeed take a loss and would still want to work with us in the future, we commit to doing our best to make things right. At this point, though, we took measures that were required to stay afloat and to make all our members who followed our deal correctly whole.

« Last Edit: October 16, 2023, 02:52:50 PM by al613 »

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #7864 on: October 16, 2023, 03:02:22 PM »
Has anyone tried doing a chargeback for the TS tickets? They changed the time by an hour for concerts - not sure that is material enough?

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #7865 on: October 17, 2023, 10:09:50 PM »
1. Me and my wife had dozens of deals with PFS before and even after opting into their deal it was obvious we can sell the coins for much bigger profit on ebay we never reneged on any deals.
2. We opted into the deal and followed all the rules of the deal. 
3. Some of the tickets we bought were resell tickets and they were bought BEFORE any notification from PFS to buy only standard tickets. As soon as we received such instructions we made sure not to buy them even it's pretty difficult to check your emails in the heat of the moment and the original deal did not include instructions to keep checking emails or the tickets you buy might not be honored. Also, expecting every email to go through in time when every minute counts is a not very reliable way to communicate major changes to the deal that might create huge losses.
4. We have never participated in such ticket deal before and never knew that it's a "common knowledge" that we are not allowed to buy resell tickets. PFS instructions before the deal did not include this "small" detail. PFS instructions were to keep checking ticketmaster for the newly released tickets long after the first batch is released. If they would not give such instructions I think a number of resell tickets bought will be negligible.
5. PFS explained that they refuse to honor resell ticket is because it was partially our "mistake". They gave us an option to except 50% payment of the loss on resell tickets (we lost this way over $1k) plus they have confiscated the profit of $25 per ticket for ALL tickets we bought (around $2.5k) as a condition of any partial payment for the resell tickets. The only way PFS was ready to pay us even partially for ANY tickets was our agreement to not demand any profit on the standard tickets or not to demand any payment to reimburse for the resell tickets. .
6. PFS stated that on this deal they did not make any official contract, so our opting in to the deal and following their instructions is not considered a contract and any money from them is basically a good will gesture.
7. By mistake we bought a couple of thousand dollars in tickets for a different Travis show. Obviously, PFS refused even to discuss them because it was our mistake. While I understand that this show was not included in the deal I do think better original instructions would prevent such situation.

Do you think PFS is ethical/legal/kosher in this situation?

good to know because I heard from somone that opted in with them to the v75 gold and sold to them when they had offers of 13-14k though didn't sign but felt that they responded to their emails... also the fact that they didn't send out a agreement was that a trick to get people not to realize and if they go up a few grand they will tell them you are committed that is the way we ran the deal and if not we never signed... don't know how to chew this but definitely an eye openner how to deal with these things thanks for informing

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #7866 on: October 17, 2023, 10:44:01 PM »
good to know because I heard from somone that opted in with them to the v75 gold and sold to them when they had offers of 13-14k though didn't sign but felt that they responded to their emails... also the fact that they didn't send out a agreement was that a trick to get people not to realize and if they go up a few grand they will tell them you are committed that is the way we ran the deal and if not we never signed... don't know how to chew this but definitely an eye openner how to deal with these things thanks for informing
I don't think they did not sent an agreement because they have planned to back out. Their emails and instruction will be enough of an agreement in any court. I think they did not know how much tickets will be bought, what the process to transfer, etc. Its a new area for them and all the excuses come after they realized their huge mistake.

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #7867 on: October 17, 2023, 10:56:05 PM »
I don't think they did not sent an agreement because they have planned to back out. Their emails and instruction will be enough of an agreement in any court. I think they did not know how much tickets will be bought, what the process to transfer, etc. Its a new area for them and all the excuses come after they realized their huge mistake.

What’s obvious is they went in way over their head in a business they know nothing about, and make it sound like they did everything by the book. Who commits to millions of dollars when they’ve never ran a concert deal like this before?

It’s one issue to screw up on the economics, it’s another to not know how to communicate proper instructions to thousands of people. A little practice and preparation is helpful before going all-in on a risky bet. Do a $100k test run, revise and ramp it up over time if it goes well.
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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #7868 on: October 18, 2023, 04:03:04 AM »
Remember:

PGFHGS

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #7869 on: October 18, 2023, 02:10:10 PM »
Remember:

PGFHGS
Exactly. But this time it also applied to us. Just based on PFS sterling reputation till now everyone assumed that they know what they are doing and if something will go wrong they will cover our loses. The whole story is a reminder that any business can make a fatal mistake and go bankrupt and if you invested too much in them you can lose your investment. The risk is very low with coins because they can be returned to the US Mint and if the price falls after the return period its very doubtful they will lose 90% of their value. (If US goes bankrupt you can lose big. :) )  With tickets it's much more risky. I just feel its more honest to go bankrupt than to stay in business and to blame your customers for your mistakes. But we might get more of our money back this way. I took what they offered because I think there is still a chance for them to go bankrupt if/when they are sued. But I think their reputation is destroyed after this "deal".

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #7870 on: October 18, 2023, 04:08:26 PM »
Exactly. But this time it also applied to us. Just based on PFS sterling reputation till now everyone assumed that they know what they are doing and if something will go wrong they will cover our loses. The whole story is a reminder that any business can make a fatal mistake and go bankrupt and if you invested too much in them you can lose your investment. The risk is very low with coins because they can be returned to the US Mint and if the price falls after the return period its very doubtful they will lose 90% of their value. (If US goes bankrupt you can lose big. :) )  With tickets it's much more risky. I just feel its more honest to go bankrupt than to stay in business and to blame your customers for your mistakes. But we might get more of our money back this way. I took what they offered because I think there is still a chance for them to go bankrupt if/when they are sued. But I think their reputation is destroyed after this "deal".

Any existing BG business has the exact same risks. I'd sooner give PFS the money then a different company, knowing that a) they will surely learn from this terrible mistake and b) they've tried to pay back ppl to the best of their ability.

Disclaimer....I am not excusing any of their mistakes etc.... I think they were wrong in some of the things they did. Just overall my conclusion is as stated above.

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #7871 on: October 18, 2023, 11:48:33 PM »
Maybe the lesson here is to not try to profit from a singer who possibly killed people at his events?

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #7872 on: October 19, 2023, 06:02:43 AM »
Exactly. But this time it also applied to us. Just based on PFS sterling reputation till now everyone assumed that they know what they are doing and if something will go wrong they will cover our loses. The whole story is a reminder that any business can make a fatal mistake and go bankrupt and if you invested too much in them you can lose your investment. The risk is very low with coins because they can be returned to the US Mint and if the price falls after the return period its very doubtful they will lose 90% of their value. (If US goes bankrupt you can lose big. :) )  With tickets it's much more risky. I just feel its more honest to go bankrupt than to stay in business and to blame your customers for your mistakes. But we might get more of our money back this way. I took what they offered because I think there is still a chance for them to go bankrupt if/when they are sued. But I think their reputation is destroyed after this "deal".
I dont think they will run a ticket deal again, idk if I would buy for them again if they did, but I would have no qualms buying a coin for them, obviously that is their specialty and they shouldn't of gotten away from it like they write above (and because it can be returned/likely won't lose significant value)

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #7873 on: October 19, 2023, 11:46:23 AM »
Do you think PFS is ethical/legal/kosher in this situation?

I had a very similar experience. I agree with you, and even though I feel really bad for their losses it doesn't mean that I need to be okay and willing to take a hit as well.

Even though there is always the risk involved, it was least expected from PFS and it was a suspense and unpleasant process waiting for responses and getting paid. I believe that a lot of people only accepted to get paid at a loss in fear of losing it all...
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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #7874 on: October 20, 2023, 02:00:18 PM »
Like many others, I accepted the option to get my money back and forego the $25 commission per ticket.  I bought 24 tickets in total (8ea for 3 dates).  Check deposited, I've moved on.

I see that the first show for my tickets is tonight (10/20) in Kansas City.  From what I can see in my Ticketmaster account, 0 have sold, and only 2 of the 8 tickets are listed for sale.  I paid just over $200 before fees and they are listed for sale at $37.  I get the various comments about changing the deal, poor initial communication, what if the situation were reversed, etc.
I still feel bad for PFS and I'm glad I chose the blue pill.

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #7875 on: October 20, 2023, 03:21:22 PM »
I also find it strange that they did not list all the tickets for sale. Yes, they will lose ton of money on them, but not listing them makes you lose all of the money spent.

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #7876 on: October 20, 2023, 03:25:26 PM »
Like many others, I accepted the option to get my money back and forego the $25 commission per ticket.  I bought 24 tickets in total (8ea for 3 dates).  Check deposited, I've moved on.

I see that the first show for my tickets is tonight (10/20) in Kansas City.  From what I can see in my Ticketmaster account, 0 have sold, and only 2 of the 8 tickets are listed for sale.  I paid just over $200 before fees and they are listed for sale at $37.  I get the various comments about changing the deal, poor initial communication, what if the situation were reversed, etc.
I still feel bad for PFS and I'm glad I chose the blue pill.
No good outcome here unfortunately for them. Give them credit where credit is due as they did not just cut and run. I'm not so sure others would have done the same.

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #7877 on: October 20, 2023, 03:46:27 PM »
I also find it strange that they did not list all the tickets for sale. Yes, they will lose ton of money on them, but not listing them makes you lose all of the money spent.

This is where they probably did the right thing. Creating artificial scarcity is the only way they have a chance of getting a quicker sale at a higher price.
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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #7878 on: October 20, 2023, 04:28:26 PM »
This is where they probably did the right thing. Creating artificial scarcity is the only way they have a chance of getting a quicker sale at a higher price.
There are many other sellers, thats why the prices are so low. I don't think they can create scarcity.

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Re: New Coin Deal
« Reply #7879 on: October 20, 2023, 04:37:48 PM »
No good outcome here unfortunately for them. Give them credit where credit is due as they did not just cut and run. I'm not so sure others would have done the same.
Not sure it works this way. The really negative part of this story is blaming people for your mistake and based on this refusing to pay them in full because its "our mistake". This is already not just a devastating business mistake but being dishonest.