How many students did Rabbi Akiva have in total?

[Entrepreneur]

If Rabbi Akiva had 24,000 students, then why are we happy they stopped dying by lag baomer, there were no more talmidim to die. If his 5 main students afterwards were part of the total, so 24,005, then are we celebrating that we had 5 who didn't die?
Or did he have more than 24,000?

[Centro]

Some say the 24k talmidim died during the 49 days of sfira except on shabess and some other days (don't remember which ones, maybe erev shabess and rosh chodesh), so they didn't stop dieing on lag baomer.

[chaimmayer]

good q
I believe the pri chadash asks it in that siman in shulchan aruch.  I remember liking the kasha a lot better than than the teretz.
Piskei teshuvis quotes someone that it was on lag baomer that he got the 5 new talmidim.

[emjee]

If Rabbi Akiva had 24,000 students, then why are we happy they stopped dying by lag baomer, there were no more talmidim to die.

Assuming you're serious about your question עיין ביאור הגר״א בש״ע שם שמביא הגמרא בתענית he compares the simcha on lag be'omer to the same simcha klal Yisrael had when the meisei hamidbar stopped stopped dying . עיין שם

[shiframeir]

yes great question, really good study by R Shnayer Leiman gets into the history of lag b'omer here (and includes your question). http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/734356/dr-shnayer-leiman/the-strange-history-of-lag-b-omer/

[Amusch]

I believe it is the Pri Chadash (as above) who asks and gives the answer quoted above, that on Lag Baomer he took 5 new talmidim and that's what we celebrate.

[avremie]

כולהו אליבא דרבי עקיבא

[SuperFlyer]

Normally someone losing practically all his students in such a fashion would at least quit his job, or maybe even commit suicide.
R' Akiva raised his error in education, and started with fresh strength again.
That is the celebration.

[churnbabychurn]

yes great question, really good study by R Shnayer Leiman gets into the history of lag b'omer here (and includes your question). http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/734356/dr-shnayer-leiman/the-strange-history-of-lag-b-omer/

Very meh..

He admittedly knows little about the subject matter, and clearly made little effort to supply any reasonable support to the other side of his argument. Either because he didn't research it, or because he is biased for some reason.

He basically presents the very famous arguments from the chassam sofer against the holiday, and dismisses the matter.

[shiframeir]

Very meh..

He admittedly knows little about the subject matter, and clearly made little effort to supply any reasonable support to the other side of his argument. Either because he didn't research it, or because he is biased for some reason.

He basically presents the very famous arguments from the chassam sofer against the holiday, and dismisses the matter.

Please explain where he went wrong, I am sure he researched this much more than anyone, dude is a major scholar and holy jew. He cites real sources and manuscripts, what do you have to refute it?

[churnbabychurn]

Please explain where he went wrong, I am sure he researched this much more than anyone, dude is a major scholar and holy jew. He cites real sources and manuscripts, what do you have to refute it?

I can't go through a point by point. But generally he came with an agenda against the Yom tov. - implied that this is the meiri as the main source of anything, and implied that R Chaim vital is somehow unreliable about the date of R Shimon passing. Etc etc etc.

Basically he quoted 4 or 5 sources. And concludes like the chassam sofer. Implying that there arn't many other sources....

He didn't even explain why at minimum we don't say tachnun. - tur/ shulchan oruch - all of the poskim agree on this and is the minhag in all of klall Yisroel.
 (Conveniently didn't even make this the main topic of the speech).

I'm fine with making it into a non Yom tov (chassam sofer and minhag Lita.) But the non tachnun/no availus wasn't really addressed.


Besides, it's clearly a kabalistic holiday, and this is why it's not found in shas/reshonim. - he could of at least said this.

[churnbabychurn]

Please explain where he went wrong, I am sure he researched this much more than anyone, dude is a major scholar and holy jew. He cites real sources and manuscripts, what do you have to refute it?

I'm sure he is a big scholar etc. I don't know him. Just saying his shiur on this was very very far from comprehensive.

[shiframeir]

I can't go through a point by point. But generally he came with an agenda against the Yom tov. - implied that this is the meiri as the main source of anything, and implied that R Chaim vital is somehow unreliable about the date of R Shimon passing. Etc etc etc.

Basically he quoted 4 or 5 sources. And concludes like the chassam sofer. Implying that there arn't many other sources....

He didn't even explain why at minimum we don't say tachnun. - tur/ shulchan oruch - all of the poskim agree on this and is the minhag in all of klall Yisroel.
 (Conveniently didn't even make this the main topic of the speech).

I'm fine with making it into a non Yom tov (chassam sofer and minhag Lita.) But the non tachnun/no availus wasn't really addressed.


Besides, it's clearly a kabalistic holiday, and this is why it's not found in shas/reshonim. - he could of at least said this.

he notes the kabalists that tried to provide explanations, but i assure you from what i have heard and read from him hes not a guy with an agenda or trying to be open ortho or something. he's a big anav and very into real mesorah and stays true to sources more than most i have read/listened to. Maybe he doesnt know why at its essence we dont say tachanun, and I'm sure he has tried to figure it out, though it is presumably related to the stopping of the deaths (regardless of whatever pircha we may have on that).

[12HRS]

Chida says that Lag Baomer is a celebration of when R' Akiva restablished his yeshiva with the 5 new talmidim. It wasn't the same year as the dying of the 24000.

[peroneustertius]

Normally someone losing practically all his students in such a fashion would at least quit his job, or maybe even commit suicide.
R' Akiva raised his error in education, and started with fresh strength again.
That is the celebration.

I like this answer. Is it your own?

[SuperFlyer]

I like this answer. Is it your own?

Thanks, no, it's of one of my rabbis.

[skyguy918]

Normally someone losing practically all his students in such a fashion would at least quit his job, or maybe even commit suicide.
R' Akiva raised his error in education, and started with fresh strength again.
That is the celebration.

I like this answer. Is it your own?

See the post directly above your's.

Chida says that Lag Baomer is a celebration of when R' Akiva restablished his yeshiva with the 5 new talmidim. It wasn't the same year as the dying of the 24000.

[SuperFlyer]

See the post directly above your's.

Right, but maybe not obvious enough.
Many people open new yeshivos.

[skyguy918]

Right, but maybe not obvious enough.
Many people open new yeshivos.

I'm not taking anything away from what you wrote. I'm just pointing out that the foundation of the whole thing - the idea that Lag B'Omer celebrates R' Akiva's new talmidim/yeshiva and not the ceasing of his old talmidim's deaths - was just quoted from the Chida.

You can argue for many different explanations of why that was worthy of celebration. For example, one additional reason was alluded to above:

כולהו אליבא דרבי עקיבא

The full quote is:

אמר רבי יוחנן: סתם מתניתין - רבי מאיר, סתם תוספתא - רבי נחמיה, סתם ספרא - רבי יהודה, סתם ספרי - רבי שמעון, וכולהו אליבא דרבי עקיבא.

which basically means that much of how we pasken (the halacha generally accords with the סתם) comes from R' Akiva, and through those 5 later talmidim. That's something to celebrate too.

[churnbabychurn]

Just heard (from another YU person), that R Henkin writes that the 24 thousand were involved in the bar kochva revolt and the whole lo nohagu kovod is just a cover up because Chazal were afraid of the Romans.

-radical chidush imho.