Should US based couples obtain a marriage license and be legally married?

[peroneustertius]

You want to do it then that's one issue, my problem is that most people doing it are all high and mighty about how great they are and what tzaddikim they are. Whatever happened to דינא דמלכותא דינא?

wow. Thanks for standing up against this practice. I can understand how people with no Torah can do this. But if you live by the Torah I have no idea how you can justify this to yourself.

[Iz]

But if you live by the Torah I have no idea how you can justify this to yourself.

There is no ethical, moral, patriotic, halachic or other reason to not practice legal tax avoidance.

Hence, one simple question: Is it legal?

[ExGingi]

This was never intended to subvert דינא דמלכותא, however as we see דינא דמלכותא go down hill to דיני סדום, was trying to see if there could be a legal setup that would make it possible. From what I gather thus far, in NYS it's probably impossible (still waiting for clarity on whether a מודעא as I suggested above, would have any legal standing, and possibly a domestic partnership filing in order to establish that there was no intent to establish a civil union). It does seem at the moment that in NJ one can be halachically married and not civily married.

Just to give a little background as to how the seeds of this idea were planted in my head. I am licensed to sell health insurance in NY. When Obamacare came about, I had to attend a special course in order to be able to sell on the NY health exchange. It was that course and the perverted case scenarios we had to answer questions on, that got me thinking on what might work for the Jews. All within a legal framework.

[Aaaron]

Hence, one simple question: Is it legal?

In states where the ceremony is sufficient to qualify as a legal marriage, then no, it's tax fraud.

[ExGingi]

Hence, one simple question: Is it legal?

Actually two questions. In addition to the legality question, we want to know if it is halachically permitted.

[Iz]

Actually two questions. In addition to the legality question, we want to know if it is halachically permitted.

מצד אבן העזר או מצד חושן משפט

[ExGingi]

מצד אבן העזר או מצד חושן משפט

מכל צד ופינה שתהיה

[churnbabychurn]

I am talking about cases where one can freely decide how to split the income between both sides. Such as business owners.

From one of your links:

9. Marriage penalty. A marriage penalty exists when two individuals filing a joint return pay more tax than the sum of their individual tax liabilities calculated as if they were filing as single taxpayers. One reason this occurs is because the MFJ income tax brackets and standard deduction are not always equal to twice the single income tax bracket and standard deduction. Under current law, the marriage penalty is partly alleviated because the lower income tax bracket (10% and 15%) and the standard deduction for MFJ are exactly double that of single individuals.



So you can see that if one is above the 15% bracket there's a marriage penalty. IIRC NYS also has a marriage penalty, but NJ doesn't. And at the lower rungs if you have two separate heads of household, the EIC difference is significant.

Also home sale deduction is significant. -  250K more if married filing joint. 

[Iz]

מכל צד ופינה שתהיה

לא הבנתי. אם מותר גמור עפ"י חוק, מה הצד לאסור עפ"י דין תורה
(I'm not saying it's a good idea; the law of unintended consequences can be a huge factor here...)

[MarkS]

Also home sale deduction is significant. -  250K more if married filing joint. 

Right, So you can mosey along making a few buck here and there and then get a whopper bill when you sell your house!!!
(Unless then you're at retirement age adn you get married before selling!)

[yitzf]

Regarding Income Taxes http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/what-are-marriage-penalties-and-bonuses

Typically is one spouse generates a high income and the other makes little to none then there can be significant tax and govt. program benefits if theoreticaly they wouldn't be married

[username]

^^
Unless you need to report all the income in the household.

[ExGingi]

לא הבנתי. אם מותר גמור עפ"י חוק, מה הצד לאסור עפ"י דין תורה
(I'm not saying it's a good idea; the law of unintended consequences can be a huge factor here...)

I have no idea. I am not well versed in either חושן משפט or in אבן העזר. Maybe it creates a problem with the עדות, maybe it's a problem of חילול השם even if it's מותר ע"פ דינא דמלכותא (similar to the prohibition of two siblings who converted to get married to each other - שלא יאמרו וכו'.)

[Iz]

I have no idea. I am not well versed in either חושן משפט or in אבן העזר. Maybe it creates a problem with the עדות, maybe it's a problem of חילול השם even if it's מותר ע"פ דינא דמלכותא (similar to the prohibition of two siblings who converted to get married to each other - שלא יאמרו וכו'.)

עכשיו הבנתי

[ExGingi]

Regarding Income Taxes http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/what-are-marriage-penalties-and-bonuses

Typically is one spouse generates a high income and the other makes little to none then there can be significant tax and govt. program benefits if theoretical they wouldn't be married

For some benefits and possible advantages just refer back to
 

[Zevi16]

I know some Rabanim that won't be mesader kidushin unless they have the license to sign then and there

[ExGingi]

עכשיו הבנתי

Pleasure having an intelligent conversation.

And this entire thread just make me appreciate DDF more than before, I enjoy the exchange of ideas, opinions, insights and knowledge, especially when thought provoking and approached with an open mind.

One take away I got from this is to be extra careful in giving advice where I am not an expert in all relevant fields, I might give my opinion, but advice is dangerous (especially if it falls outside the realm covered by my E&O insurance).

From the little I gather, in FL a common-law marriage entered into in good-faith, might be valid even though in general common-law marriages are not recognized. Not sure if by implication this would mean חופה וקידושין without a license would be considered a civil marriage.

[ExGingi]

I know some Rabanim that won't be mesader kidushin unless they have the license to sign then and there

Officially most, if not all, won't. However I know of two specific cases in my family, one in NY and one in FL where the wedding took place without a marriage license. Both of these couples have been filing as singles (or heads of household where "appropriate"), with advantages to both. One couple being in the lower rungs of income, and the other being in a high tax bracket.

[yitzf]

For some benefits and possible advantages just refer back to
 

The disability and college thing doesn't apply to most of us, you need to deduct $39,00. I'm not 100% familiar with the utilities program, but IME you cant get $4,800 in free utilities in NJ. For health insurance they wouldn't get any Obamacare subsidies, rather the mother and children would get medicaid and the father would need to pay in full for his own coverage.

[username]

What about getting married legally, before the chupah vkiddushin?

I know a couple that was getting married in January, but it made sense for tax purposes to get married before the year ended. so they went to a justice, and got legally married.

(Funny story, the judge asked if there was a ring, and they replied no. He was suprised. After the proceedings, he says "you may now kiss the bride". Again no. Judge was veeery suprised!)