Author Topic: Starbucks testing Cholov Yisroel in 10 stores  (Read 9840 times)

Offline Freddie

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Re: Starbucks testing Cholov Yisroel in 10 stores
« Reply #75 on: June 09, 2016, 09:57:13 AM »
I'm confused is this the kashrus thread?

What's the purpose of your comment? If it was supposed to be a harmless joke, then fine, but if you were trying to criticize people for getting "off topic" then I reject your rebuke and I counter-rebuke you, sir. What do you not get? 90% of the people on this forum care about kashrus. News was announced about Starbucks and, like we would with any deal, people on the forum are discussing whether there is any value to this news or not. Why do people get uptight when kashrus is the subject?

Offline JTZ

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Re: Starbucks testing Cholov Yisroel in 10 stores
« Reply #76 on: June 09, 2016, 10:15:39 AM »
I'm confused is this the kashrus thread?
Join the crowd.  :)
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Offline Aaaron

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Re: Starbucks testing Cholov Yisroel in 10 stores
« Reply #77 on: June 09, 2016, 10:16:12 AM »
Serious question, Freddie, and I truly mean no offense:  Where does your hyper-sensitivity regarding CY come from?  I seem to remember you implying that many of the world's ills are due to the consumption of cholov stam.  Is there a mekor for this?  Is it just a Chabad thing?  I'm genuinely curious.

Offline Freddie

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Re: Starbucks testing Cholov Yisroel in 10 stores
« Reply #78 on: June 09, 2016, 10:28:32 AM »
Yes, I think it is a "Chabad thing," as you call it, to be sensitive about cholov Yisroel. There is definitely an aspect of that. But there is more to it.

Cholov Yisroel became the red-headed stepchild of halachos. It get's so little respect in the frum community, which is ironic because cholov Yisroel is something you put into your body and which becomes your very organs and cells. Non-cholov Yisroel clogs up the fine machinery that is the Yiddisher mind and heart and makes us unreceptive to ruchnius. So, yeah, in that sense, it is the source of many other ills. People can laugh and scoff at this but when someone loses their sensitivity to other mitzvos, it often can be traced back to maachalos asuros and their numbing effect. Then it becomes a vicious cycle.

TL;DR if frum people today would treat CY with at least as much respect as other halachos, I probably would never mention it.

Offline mendy from lakewood

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Re: Starbucks testing Cholov Yisroel in 10 stores
« Reply #79 on: June 09, 2016, 10:38:19 AM »
im very mixed up...this new announcement does not change the overall kashrus of going to starbucks in general?
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Offline Aaaron

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Re: Starbucks testing Cholov Yisroel in 10 stores
« Reply #80 on: June 09, 2016, 10:41:19 AM »
Yes, I think it is a "Chabad thing," as you call it, to be sensitive about cholov Yisroel. There is definitely an aspect of that. But there is more to it.

Cholov Yisroel became the red-headed stepchild of halachos. It get's so little respect in the frum community, which is ironic because cholov Yisroel is something you put into your body and which becomes your very organs and cells. Non-cholov Yisroel clogs up the fine machinery that is the Yiddisher mind and heart and makes us unreceptive to ruchnius. So, yeah, in that sense, it is the source of many other ills. People can laugh and scoff at this but when someone loses their sensitivity to other mitzvos, it often can be traced back to maachalos asuros and their numbing effect. Then it becomes a vicious cycle.

TL;DR if frum people today would treat CY with at least as much respect as other halachos, I probably would never mention it.

That's fair, but I don't think it's a true equivalence.  You're assuming that the milk that's entering the body consists of something assur.  For example, if I eat a parve chocolate bar that doesn't have a hashgacha, but has no non-kosher ingredients, how has my body suffered?  Similarly with milk, assuming the milk actually came from a cow and has no actual kashrus issues, how can/does it harm your neshama?

Offline Freddie

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Re: Starbucks testing Cholov Yisroel in 10 stores
« Reply #81 on: June 09, 2016, 10:46:48 AM »
im very mixed up...this new announcement does not change the overall kashrus of going to starbucks in general?

Not really. It's nothing more than a symbolic gesture, which unfortunately many people seem to feel is "good enough."

Basically, if you keep kosher at all, then you are limited, just like before, to getting a plain black coffee at Starbucks (although some argue that Starbucks is somehow worse than the truck stop on the Interstate for plain black coffee and won't even say you can get that.)

If you keep kosher but not Cholov Yisrael, then you were always able to get a plain black coffee and have them pour in some cold milk.

The only change now is that if you keep cholov Yisroel on a purely emotional and symbolic level as a cultural thing but not as a way of following halacha, then you can have them pour the cold cholov Yisroel milk into the plain black coffee and FEEL like you are keeping cholov Yisroel.

Unfortunately what will actually happen is that people will now get all sorts of fancy frothy hot drinks that pass through their keylim with actual tarfus. Nu nu.

Offline Freddie

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Re: Starbucks testing Cholov Yisroel in 10 stores
« Reply #82 on: June 09, 2016, 10:49:40 AM »
That's fair, but I don't think it's a true equivalence.  You're assuming that the milk that's entering the body consists of something assur.  For example, if I eat a parve chocolate bar that doesn't have a hashgacha, but has no non-kosher ingredients, how has my body suffered?  Similarly with milk, assuming the milk actually came from a cow and has no actual kashrus issues, how can/does it harm your neshama?

That's where the whole discussion of what is the actual geder of cholov Yisroel comes in. Is it a "ch'shash" of an issur d'oraisa or is it an issur (m'd'rabanon) of its own. For instance, if I eat chicken and milk and I don't come to eat red meat and milk, have I consumed anything that is harmful to my spiritual make-up?

Offline mgarfin

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Re: Starbucks testing Cholov Yisroel in 10 stores
« Reply #83 on: June 09, 2016, 10:55:56 AM »
Because since people go in and out it is not a problem Al Pi Halachah.

How long does it take to refill the CY bottle? He doesn't have a hashgach so יוצא ונכנס doesn't apply.

Offline aygart

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Re: Starbucks testing Cholov Yisroel in 10 stores
« Reply #84 on: June 09, 2016, 10:57:18 AM »
I'm confused is this the kashrus thread?
You mean a thread about the kashrus of milk at Starbucks? Um, yes.
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Offline Aaaron

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Re: Starbucks testing Cholov Yisroel in 10 stores
« Reply #85 on: June 09, 2016, 10:58:07 AM »
That's where the whole discussion of what is the actual geder of cholov Yisroel comes in. Is it a "ch'shash" of an issur d'oraisa or is it an issur (m'd'rabanon) of its own. For instance, if I eat chicken and milk and I don't come to eat red meat and milk, have I consumed anything that is harmful to my spiritual make-up?

True.  Take beef for example, there's no molecular difference between a slab of roast from a properly-schechted cow and one that wasn't, but there's obviously a huge halachic difference.  I guess you can possibly say the same for milk?  But you're right, you would only be able to say that if it's in fact an issur.   

Offline good sam

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Re: Starbucks testing Cholov Yisroel in 10 stores
« Reply #86 on: June 09, 2016, 11:13:47 AM »
True.  Take beef for example, there's no molecular difference between a slab of roast from a properly-schechted cow and one that wasn't, but there's obviously a huge halachic difference.  I guess you can possibly say the same for milk?  But you're right, you would only be able to say that if it's in fact an issur.
I think you missed his point. Everyone will agree there's very big difference between kosher meat and treif meat, regardless of the molecular composition.

The question arises on a d'rabanan which was only enacted as a geder for something else: does the food which the rabanan prohibited get the status of issur independent of the issur d'oraisa that they are protecting against.

Perhaps there's a difference between a geder (like chicken and milk) and a chasash (like cholov stam) where it turned out the food was actually kosher.
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Offline @Yehuda

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Re: Starbucks testing Cholov Yisroel in 10 stores
« Reply #87 on: June 09, 2016, 11:29:38 AM »
It's not colov Yisroel once the bottle is opened...
Does that mean if you have a CY bottle of milk in your fridge at home and you have a non-Jewish babysitter/nanny home alone, you can no longer assume the milk is CY?

Offline Freddie

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Re: Starbucks testing Cholov Yisroel in 10 stores
« Reply #88 on: June 09, 2016, 11:32:54 AM »
The real question, and this is deep metaphysics here, is about whether a geder d'rabanon is to protect against a metzius or a metzius unto itself.

The reason I don't drink "chaleiv companies" is not because I think it's camel milk. The reason I don't drink it is because it's not cholov Yisroel.

Offline Baruch

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Re: Starbucks testing Cholov Yisroel in 10 stores
« Reply #89 on: June 09, 2016, 11:33:40 AM »
Let every yid open a new bottle, and let the goyim finish the open bottles.  8)
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