Author Topic: Silent Killer  (Read 88365 times)

Offline henche

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #915 on: July 20, 2017, 06:58:11 PM »
In that case "Just say no" cannot be judged as a success.

Based on a comparison that took all the other factors into account including trends, economic changes, etc.

If such a study was run on just say no, it was a huge waste of money,  and I don't trust that it really took everything into account anyway

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #916 on: July 20, 2017, 06:58:17 PM »
No to your theoreticall pre-addict
I am not sure. On the other hand some studies have shown, and I have cited them previously in this thread, that there are some things which are advocated which can be detrimental to self control. Some attribute the failure of "Just say no" to exactly that. BTW, it is not "my theoretical pre addict" but yours.
Just because things turned out a certain way doesn't mean you were right.

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #917 on: July 20, 2017, 07:00:25 PM »
Based on a comparison that took all the other factors into account including trends, economic changes, etc.

If such a study was run on just say no, it was a huge waste of money,  and I don't trust that it really took everything into account anyway
We can never take every single thing into account. Does that mean we can never judge something to be a failure?
Just because things turned out a certain way doesn't mean you were right.

Offline CS1

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #918 on: July 20, 2017, 07:03:56 PM »
So how can a 12 step system (which is based primarily on self control) be of any help at all?

Are you referring to someone who is already addicted or the "future addict" that it is inevitable that they will become addicted?

The 12-step system can help them stay alive for one more day. Each day. They will not be cured. They will always need that support, continuous 12-step guidance, and they will almost always remain at a higher risk.

Just say no, right?
In that case "Just say no" cannot be judged as a success.

"just say no" works to say no to the very first cigarette, drink, or joint. After that first non-self-control of not saying "no" the first time, especially for heroin, it's a huge almost uncontrollable disease. Once they are hooked, the victims choose heroin over their own parents, children, and loved ones, as seen in the adult heroin victim car-deaths with kids in the backseat.
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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #919 on: July 20, 2017, 07:04:07 PM »
I'll send you a p.m. if I have to explain this one to you
I understand what you are referring to when you say "different perversions". My question is if the RATE of those engaging in these is the same as those not engaging in abstinence outside of Catholic Schools. Success cannot be measured by a standard of all or nothing.
Just because things turned out a certain way doesn't mean you were right.

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #920 on: July 20, 2017, 07:06:35 PM »
The 12-step system can help them stay alive for one more day. They will not be cured. They will always need that support, continuous 12-step guidance, and they will almost always remain at a higher risk.

"just say no" works for the very first cigarette, drink, or joint. After that first non-self-control of not saying "no" the first time, especially for heroin, it's a huge almost uncontrollable disease. Once they are hooked, the victims choose heroin over their own parents, children, and loved ones, as seen in the adult heroin victim car-deaths with kids in the backseat.

At first glance I cannot find anything here i disagree with, other than possibly your characterization that after one failure they are doomed forever. I know many who have had a handful of cigarettes and never came close to addiction.
Just because things turned out a certain way doesn't mean you were right.

Offline henche

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #921 on: July 20, 2017, 07:21:57 PM »
We can never take every single thing into account. Does that mean we can never judge something to be a failure?

Something as vague as this with so many factors? Sounds apt right.
Why need to judge it anyway?

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #922 on: July 20, 2017, 07:25:33 PM »
Something as vague as this with so many factors? Sounds apt right.
Why need to judge it anyway?
To know what to do in the future
Just because things turned out a certain way doesn't mean you were right.

Offline CS1

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #923 on: July 20, 2017, 07:41:29 PM »
To know what to do in the future
+100

and so that the rabbis and the leaders understand the life-death risks, and that it's an increasing epidemic that goes beyond a self-control issue once it's in deep.
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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #924 on: July 20, 2017, 07:52:24 PM »
+100

and so that the rabbis and the leaders understand the life-death risks, and that it's an increasing epidemic that goes beyond a self-control issue once it's in deep.
Yes it is extremely important that rabbonim understand this. I have used my affiliation with rabbonim here in Lakewood to advance this. I do feel strongly that much of the fault for those who do not understand and even sometimes seem callous when people discuss it with them respectfully lies at the feet of those who have use this topic as a weapon to attack yiddishkeit as a whole. It then becomes much more difficult to listen to a discussion on the topic with an open mind. They would now need to first get past the fear of being attacked. The same goes for many other issues such as various types of child abuse. When each case is used to attack yiddishkeit as a whole it prevents the issue from getting taken care of. THAT is what creates a stigma against those involved in helping the victims.
Just because things turned out a certain way doesn't mean you were right.

Offline Boruch999

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #925 on: July 20, 2017, 07:54:13 PM »
When each case is used to attack yiddishkeit as a whole it prevents the issue from getting taken care of. THAT is what creates a stigma against those involved in helping the victims.
+1

Offline CS1

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #926 on: July 20, 2017, 07:58:14 PM »
Yes it is extremely important that rabbonim understand this. I have used my affiliation with rabbonim here in Lakewood to advance this. I do feel strongly that much of the fault for those who do not understand and even sometimes seem callous when people discuss it with them respectfully lies at the feet of those who have use this topic as a weapon to attack yiddishkeit as a whole. It then becomes much more difficult to listen to a discussion on the topic with an open mind. They would now need to first get past the fear of being attacked. The same goes for many other issues such as various types of child abuse. When each case is used to attack yiddishkeit as a whole it prevents the issue from getting taken care of. THAT is what creates a stigma against those involved in helping the victims.

and THAT is exactly why we mentioned that if the Rabbonim would treat it as a physical condition as a broken arm, and have public treatments, prevention, and education, then this can be resolved better. Can Rabbi BenTzion Twerski help the Lakewood rabbonim see this?

edited to add this Robin Williams link. He had a mental illness that needed help. Mental illness also exists in Lakewood, Skver, Bobov, Satmar, etc... it also needs prevention, education, and treatment: http://popchassid.com/robin-williams-didnt-kill/
« Last Edit: July 20, 2017, 09:34:17 PM by CS1 »
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Offline CS1

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #927 on: July 20, 2017, 09:32:18 PM »
At first glance I cannot find anything here i disagree with, other than possibly your characterization that after one failure they are doomed forever. I know many who have had a handful of cigarettes and never came close to addiction.

1) no, they are not doomed forever, but the "Just say no" works for Phase #1 of pre-addiction. It's obviously much harder afterwards...

2) A 'handful of cigarettes' may be fine for some and they can go the next 50 yrs without issues. However, a 'handful of heroin', will possibly cause years of addition, financial issues, and high risk of death from of or tainted product, etc... So these are really the substances that we need to educate and obliterate. In public. These rabbis are hiding this. It's not a religion issue. Frum people have died.
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Online yuneeq

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #928 on: July 21, 2017, 12:47:51 AM »
1) no, they are not doomed forever, but the "Just say no" works for Phase #1 of pre-addiction. It's obviously much harder afterwards...

2) A 'handful of cigarettes' may be fine for some and they can go the next 50 yrs without issues. However, a 'handful of heroin', will possibly cause years of addition, financial issues, and high risk of death from of or tainted product, etc... So these are really the substances that we need to educate and obliterate. In public. These rabbis are hiding this. It's not a religion issue. Frum people have died.

2) Do we really need to educate that? Is there anyone that doesn't realize the problem with heroin? I mean I never heard one class about heroin but I as kid I could tell you that heroin is a big no-no. If you taught me that heroin was so common then I could see my perspective as a kid changing.

Offline CS1

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #929 on: July 21, 2017, 12:50:02 AM »
2) Do we really need to educate that? Is there anyone that doesn't realize the problem with heroin? ...
.....

yes, there are people who don't realize the problem with heroin: The 5 who died within 10 days where not educated from the start, and they did not realize the problem before they tried their first one.
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