Author Topic: Silent Killer  (Read 107359 times)

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 12458
  • Total likes: 7096
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #920 on: July 20, 2017, 07:06:35 PM »
The 12-step system can help them stay alive for one more day. They will not be cured. They will always need that support, continuous 12-step guidance, and they will almost always remain at a higher risk.

"just say no" works for the very first cigarette, drink, or joint. After that first non-self-control of not saying "no" the first time, especially for heroin, it's a huge almost uncontrollable disease. Once they are hooked, the victims choose heroin over their own parents, children, and loved ones, as seen in the adult heroin victim car-deaths with kids in the backseat.

At first glance I cannot find anything here i disagree with, other than possibly your characterization that after one failure they are doomed forever. I know many who have had a handful of cigarettes and never came close to addiction.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline henche

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2011
  • Posts: 3899
  • Total likes: 435
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #921 on: July 20, 2017, 07:21:57 PM »
We can never take every single thing into account. Does that mean we can never judge something to be a failure?

Something as vague as this with so many factors? Sounds apt right.
Why need to judge it anyway?

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 12458
  • Total likes: 7096
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #922 on: July 20, 2017, 07:25:33 PM »
Something as vague as this with so many factors? Sounds apt right.
Why need to judge it anyway?
To know what to do in the future
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline CS1

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Feb 2014
  • Posts: 3690
  • Total likes: 48
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
    • California Gourmet Premium Chocolate
  • Location: United States
  • Programs: DDSLA, DDSCLE, BonvoyPlat Feb2022
Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #923 on: July 20, 2017, 07:41:29 PM »
To know what to do in the future
+100

and so that the rabbis and the leaders understand the life-death risks, and that it's an increasing epidemic that goes beyond a self-control issue once it's in deep.
Amazon Prime California Gourmet Chocolate Chips https://bit.ly/4PackFREEShippingChocolateChips

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 12458
  • Total likes: 7096
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #924 on: July 20, 2017, 07:52:24 PM »
+100

and so that the rabbis and the leaders understand the life-death risks, and that it's an increasing epidemic that goes beyond a self-control issue once it's in deep.
Yes it is extremely important that rabbonim understand this. I have used my affiliation with rabbonim here in Lakewood to advance this. I do feel strongly that much of the fault for those who do not understand and even sometimes seem callous when people discuss it with them respectfully lies at the feet of those who have use this topic as a weapon to attack yiddishkeit as a whole. It then becomes much more difficult to listen to a discussion on the topic with an open mind. They would now need to first get past the fear of being attacked. The same goes for many other issues such as various types of child abuse. When each case is used to attack yiddishkeit as a whole it prevents the issue from getting taken care of. THAT is what creates a stigma against those involved in helping the victims.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Boruch999

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2014
  • Posts: 1891
  • Total likes: 139
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #925 on: July 20, 2017, 07:54:13 PM »
When each case is used to attack yiddishkeit as a whole it prevents the issue from getting taken care of. THAT is what creates a stigma against those involved in helping the victims.
+1

Offline CS1

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Feb 2014
  • Posts: 3690
  • Total likes: 48
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
    • California Gourmet Premium Chocolate
  • Location: United States
  • Programs: DDSLA, DDSCLE, BonvoyPlat Feb2022
Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #926 on: July 20, 2017, 07:58:14 PM »
Yes it is extremely important that rabbonim understand this. I have used my affiliation with rabbonim here in Lakewood to advance this. I do feel strongly that much of the fault for those who do not understand and even sometimes seem callous when people discuss it with them respectfully lies at the feet of those who have use this topic as a weapon to attack yiddishkeit as a whole. It then becomes much more difficult to listen to a discussion on the topic with an open mind. They would now need to first get past the fear of being attacked. The same goes for many other issues such as various types of child abuse. When each case is used to attack yiddishkeit as a whole it prevents the issue from getting taken care of. THAT is what creates a stigma against those involved in helping the victims.

and THAT is exactly why we mentioned that if the Rabbonim would treat it as a physical condition as a broken arm, and have public treatments, prevention, and education, then this can be resolved better. Can Rabbi BenTzion Twerski help the Lakewood rabbonim see this?

edited to add this Robin Williams link. He had a mental illness that needed help. Mental illness also exists in Lakewood, Skver, Bobov, Satmar, etc... it also needs prevention, education, and treatment: http://popchassid.com/robin-williams-didnt-kill/
« Last Edit: July 20, 2017, 09:34:17 PM by CS1 »
Amazon Prime California Gourmet Chocolate Chips https://bit.ly/4PackFREEShippingChocolateChips

Offline CS1

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Feb 2014
  • Posts: 3690
  • Total likes: 48
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
    • California Gourmet Premium Chocolate
  • Location: United States
  • Programs: DDSLA, DDSCLE, BonvoyPlat Feb2022
Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #927 on: July 20, 2017, 09:32:18 PM »
At first glance I cannot find anything here i disagree with, other than possibly your characterization that after one failure they are doomed forever. I know many who have had a handful of cigarettes and never came close to addiction.

1) no, they are not doomed forever, but the "Just say no" works for Phase #1 of pre-addiction. It's obviously much harder afterwards...

2) A 'handful of cigarettes' may be fine for some and they can go the next 50 yrs without issues. However, a 'handful of heroin', will possibly cause years of addition, financial issues, and high risk of death from of or tainted product, etc... So these are really the substances that we need to educate and obliterate. In public. These rabbis are hiding this. It's not a religion issue. Frum people have died.
Amazon Prime California Gourmet Chocolate Chips https://bit.ly/4PackFREEShippingChocolateChips

Online yuneeq

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jan 2013
  • Posts: 7361
  • Total likes: 1710
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 10
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: NJ
Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #928 on: July 21, 2017, 12:47:51 AM »
1) no, they are not doomed forever, but the "Just say no" works for Phase #1 of pre-addiction. It's obviously much harder afterwards...

2) A 'handful of cigarettes' may be fine for some and they can go the next 50 yrs without issues. However, a 'handful of heroin', will possibly cause years of addition, financial issues, and high risk of death from of or tainted product, etc... So these are really the substances that we need to educate and obliterate. In public. These rabbis are hiding this. It's not a religion issue. Frum people have died.

2) Do we really need to educate that? Is there anyone that doesn't realize the problem with heroin? I mean I never heard one class about heroin but I as kid I could tell you that heroin is a big no-no. If you taught me that heroin was so common then I could see my perspective as a kid changing.

Offline CS1

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Feb 2014
  • Posts: 3690
  • Total likes: 48
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
    • California Gourmet Premium Chocolate
  • Location: United States
  • Programs: DDSLA, DDSCLE, BonvoyPlat Feb2022
Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #929 on: July 21, 2017, 12:50:02 AM »
2) Do we really need to educate that? Is there anyone that doesn't realize the problem with heroin? ...
.....

yes, there are people who don't realize the problem with heroin: The 5 who died within 10 days where not educated from the start, and they did not realize the problem before they tried their first one.
Amazon Prime California Gourmet Chocolate Chips https://bit.ly/4PackFREEShippingChocolateChips

Offline henche

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2011
  • Posts: 3899
  • Total likes: 435
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #930 on: July 21, 2017, 12:50:39 AM »
yes, the 5 who died within 10 days where not educated from the start, and they did not realize the problem before they tried their first one.

Hence, say no to drugs.

Online yuneeq

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jan 2013
  • Posts: 7361
  • Total likes: 1710
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 10
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: NJ
Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #931 on: July 21, 2017, 12:54:04 AM »
yes, the 5 who died within 10 days where not educated from the start, and they did not realize the problem before they tried their first one.

Are you so sure of that?
Are there kids skipping all the gateway drugs and going straight to H?
And are there kids using gateway drugs that don't discuss or know anything about the higher level drugs and the risks involved? Or maybe they know exactly what it is, and because they're depressed or have some other issue they simply don't care?

Offline hvaces42

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Nov 2013
  • Posts: 5168
  • Total likes: 907
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #932 on: July 21, 2017, 12:55:56 AM »
yes, the 5 who died within 10 days where not educated from the start, and they did not realize the problem before they tried their first one.
I disagree. They started with the "non-harmful" pot and graduates to hard drugs. It takes a huge step for someone to cook up a batch of heroin and be willing to stick a needle under their toenails or between their toes or even in their arm. Yes thats where they hide the first signs of needle use. Seen it with my own eyes. Track marks are a late stage indication of heroin use. For the life of me i cant understand a hashgacha organization giving a hashgacha on pot.
Fair warning - Any PMs sent in response to forum posts are fair game for ridicule in public.

Offline hvaces42

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Nov 2013
  • Posts: 5168
  • Total likes: 907
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #933 on: July 21, 2017, 12:58:33 AM »
Are you so sure of that?
Are there kids skipping all the gateway drugs and going straight to H?
And are there kids using gateway drugs that don't discuss or know anything about the higher level drugs and the risks involved? Or maybe they know exactly what it is, and because they're depressed or have some other issue they simply don't care?
Ask anyone, there are no gateway drugs. Pot is just recreational. Pot is the replacement for cool guys who used to smoke cigars to look cooler than the cigarette smokers. Where is the ban on smoking pot. Pictures of women are a problem, not pot use.
Fair warning - Any PMs sent in response to forum posts are fair game for ridicule in public.

Offline hvaces42

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Nov 2013
  • Posts: 5168
  • Total likes: 907
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #934 on: July 21, 2017, 12:59:21 AM »
Hence, say no to drugs.
Everything is a joke or a punchline to you.
Fair warning - Any PMs sent in response to forum posts are fair game for ridicule in public.

Offline CS1

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Feb 2014
  • Posts: 3690
  • Total likes: 48
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
    • California Gourmet Premium Chocolate
  • Location: United States
  • Programs: DDSLA, DDSCLE, BonvoyPlat Feb2022
Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #935 on: July 21, 2017, 01:08:05 AM »
I disagree. They started with the "non-harmful" pot and graduates to hard drugs. It takes a huge step for someone to cook up a batch of heroin and be willing to stick a needle under their toenails or between their toes or even in their arm. Yes thats where they hide the first signs of needle use. Seen it with my own eyes. Track marks are a late stage indication of heroin use. For the life of me i cant understand a hashgacha organization giving a hashgacha on pot.

Correct. I wrote that line in order to answer yuneeq who wrote, "Is there anyone that doesn't realize the problem with heroin?"

2) Do we really need to educate that? Is there anyone that doesn't realize the problem with heroin? I mean I never heard one class about heroin but I as kid I could tell you that heroin is a big no-no. If you taught me that heroin was so common then I could see my perspective as a kid changing.
Amazon Prime California Gourmet Chocolate Chips https://bit.ly/4PackFREEShippingChocolateChips

Online yuneeq

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jan 2013
  • Posts: 7361
  • Total likes: 1710
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 10
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: NJ
Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #936 on: July 21, 2017, 01:09:13 AM »
Ask anyone, there are no gateway drugs. Pot is just recreational. Pot is the replacement for cool guys who used to smoke cigars to look cooler than the cigarette smokers. Where is the ban on smoking pot. Pictures of women are a problem, not pot use.

I don't think pot is a "gateway" drug, as it is just a Siman (that something's wrong) not a Siba.
Something like prescription meds can be real gateway though. Regardless, my point was that anyone that's even just smoking pot tends to better educated about H and other hard drugs than regular folk.

Offline hvaces42

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Nov 2013
  • Posts: 5168
  • Total likes: 907
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #937 on: July 21, 2017, 01:12:25 AM »
I don't think pot is a "gateway" drug, as it is just a Siman (that something's wrong) not a Siba.
Something like prescription meds can be real gateway though. Regardless, my point was that anyone that's even just smoking pot tends to better educated about H and other hard drugs than regular folk.
In todays society its not a siman of anything anymore. I agree pills are where the danger really lies.
Fair warning - Any PMs sent in response to forum posts are fair game for ridicule in public.

Offline churnbabychurn

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 7273
  • Total likes: 287
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #938 on: July 21, 2017, 07:33:32 AM »
2) Do we really need to educate that? Is there anyone that doesn't realize the problem with heroin? I mean I never heard one class about heroin but I as kid I could tell you that heroin is a big no-no. If you taught me that heroin was so common then I could see my perspective as a kid changing.
Heroin is more readily available today the ever before.
It's there and in a moment of weekness, the week can succumb to only one quick taste... It's all it takes 

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 12458
  • Total likes: 7096
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #939 on: July 21, 2017, 08:05:37 AM »


If you taught me that heroin was so common then I could see my perspective as a kid changing.
This.  as had been shown scientifically

Feelings don't care about your facts