Author Topic: Silent Killer  (Read 213550 times)

Online hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #380 on: November 29, 2016, 04:40:22 PM »
None of those really answered the issue.
The issue is there are no meetings in frum places. I know of meetings in reform temples, community centers and shuls. They are not teeming with frum people either. So lets get real about the stigma thats placed on people that go to meetings. You can count on one hand the number of frum people at each meeting.
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Online hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #381 on: November 29, 2016, 04:44:28 PM »
One important aspect that many people miss regarding these issues is contagion. We keep hearing over and over again how important awareness is, and in many ways it is true. On the other hand though, publicizing these issues has its own pitfalls. It has been shown that the more publicized a suicide is the more copycat cases there are. When there is a high profile celebrity suicide there has been shown to be a noticeable rise in the suicide rate. As such much care must be taken to not work so hard to fix the issue that it only gets made worse. This is a very fine line to toe. It would be a shame for people with the best intentions to help solve this issue to unknowing actually cause it to get worse.
So you say awareness may make the problem worse? I'm not a betting man but i would venture a guess that your position is just another excuse to sweep the issue under the rug. All i hear are excuses for not dealing with the issues instead of solutions to the issues.
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Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #382 on: November 29, 2016, 04:45:28 PM »
One important aspect that many people miss regarding these issues is contagion. We keep hearing over and over again how important awareness is, and in many ways it is true. On the other hand though, publicizing these issues has its own pitfalls. It has been shown that the more publicized a suicide is the more copycat cases there are. When there is a high profile celebrity suicide there has been shown to be a noticeable rise in the suicide rate. As such much care must be taken to not work so hard to fix the issue that it only gets made worse. This is a very fine line to toe. It would be a shame for people with the best intentions to help solve this issue to unknowing actually cause it to get worse.
What on earth are you talking about.

Publicizing the horrors of addiction causes copycats??

How in the world?

Online aygart

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #383 on: November 29, 2016, 04:45:36 PM »
So you say awareness may make the problem worse? I'm not a betting man but i would venture a guess that your position is just another excuse to sweep the issue under the rug. All i hear are excuses for not dealing with the issues instead of solutions to the issues.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/media-spotlight/201208/when-suicides-come-in-clusters
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/14/upshot/the-science-behind-suicide-contagion.html
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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #384 on: November 29, 2016, 04:46:03 PM »
What on earth are you talking about.

Publicizing the horrors of addiction causes copycats??

How in the world?
It is proven science, but not the horrors of it rather the fact that there are those doing it. In our case more people knowing that there is an issue within the frum community can cause others within that community to follow suit.
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Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #385 on: November 29, 2016, 04:48:54 PM »
How about for those that are uncomfortable going to churches to have it in a neutral setting where they are willing to go
Better go to a church than end up in a mental hospital, gutter or beis hachayim CV..


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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #386 on: November 29, 2016, 04:50:05 PM »
So you say awareness may make the problem worse? I'm not a betting man but i would venture a guess that your position is just another excuse to sweep the issue under the rug. All i hear are excuses for not dealing with the issues instead of solutions to the issues.
I am not saying that the issue not be dealt with rather that it be dealt with using EXTREME care and by people who are knowledgable enough about the potential consequences of what they are doing to avoid unintended pitfalls.
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Offline yochiek93

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #387 on: November 29, 2016, 04:50:21 PM »
Better go to a church than end up in a mental hospital, gutter or beis hachayim CV..
I'm not arguing

Online Yehuda57

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #388 on: November 29, 2016, 04:51:51 PM »
I am not saying that the issue not be dealt with rather that it be dealt with using EXTREME care and by people who are knowledgable enough about the potential consequences of what they are doing to avoid unintended pitfalls.

You are talking about suicide, they are talking about addiction.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #389 on: November 29, 2016, 04:52:37 PM »
It is proven science, but not the horrors of it rather the fact that there are those doing it. In our case more people knowing that there is an issue within the frum community can cause others within that community to follow suit.
Utterly ridiculous.
We don't publicize the beauty of drug addiction. There's absolutely nothing pretty about it.

The publication in the form of a body count or how to get help doesn't in any way shape or form lend increased cases of addiction.

I challenge you to even try to present a realistic scenereo of how this can happen.

 

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #390 on: November 29, 2016, 04:53:49 PM »
You are talking about suicide, they are talking about addiction.
What is the difference between them?
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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #391 on: November 29, 2016, 04:54:12 PM »
Utterly ridiculous.
We don't publicize the beauty of drug addiction. There's absolutely nothing pretty about it.

The publication in the form of a body count or how to get help doesn't in any way shape or form lend increased cases of addiction.

I challenge you to even try to present a realistic scenereo of how this can happen.

 
Did you look at the links I posted above? There are many many more for both suicide and addiction as well as other destructive behaviors. These are real studies done by professionals who work with these things on a professional basis and were published in peer reviewed journals. That is certainly not torah misinai but that it doesn't make sense to the person sitting behind a keyboard or even someone involved who did not review the numbers is irrelevant.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2016, 05:01:25 PM by aygart »
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Online Yehuda57

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #392 on: November 29, 2016, 05:12:43 PM »
What is the difference between them?

Huh? One is an addiction to a substance and one is the taking of one's own life.

For instance, the incident referred to in the Hevria article was not a suicide, AFAIK.

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #393 on: November 29, 2016, 05:15:19 PM »
Huh? One is an addiction to a substance and one is the taking of one's own life.

For instance, the incident referred to in the Hevria article was not a suicide, AFAIK.

Of course but the underlying science applies to and has been show to be true for any destructive action. By seeing that others do it makes it seem more acceptable to those on the brink.

Does the difference make a difference?
« Last Edit: November 29, 2016, 05:20:16 PM by aygart »
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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #394 on: November 29, 2016, 05:21:47 PM »
Of course but the underlying science applies to any destructive action. By seeing that others do it makes it seem more acceptable to those on the brink.

I'm at a loss as to why you are comparing suicide, which is more of an instantaneous thing, to addiction which is something that builds up over months and years. That's why guard rails on bridges and such protections reduce suicide rates - those "on the brink" will reconsider or get help given extra time. Addiction is not an "on the brink" issue.

No doubt copycat suicides exist, we saw it blatantly in our community a few years ago. That is a far cry from a young man reading about the horrors of addiction and thinking, hey, let me try that," and then getting hooked over the course of an extended period of time.

Offline coralsnake

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #395 on: November 29, 2016, 05:29:05 PM »
The issue is there are no meetings in frum places.

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #396 on: November 29, 2016, 05:29:11 PM »
I'm at a loss as to why you are comparing suicide, which is more of an instantaneous thing, to addiction which is something that builds up over months and years. That's why guard rails on bridges and such protections reduce suicide rates - those "on the brink" will reconsider or get help given extra time. Addiction is not an "on the brink" issue.

No doubt copycat suicides exist, we saw it blatantly in our community a few years ago. That is a far cry from a young man reading about the horrors of addiction and thinking, hey, let me try that," and then getting hooked over the course of an extended period of time.
It has been shown to be true for addiction as well. It is not someone saying "hey let me do it too" it is that it becomes more acceptable in his mind by seeing that others do it. I will link to articles specifically about addiction.
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Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #398 on: November 29, 2016, 06:05:51 PM »
Not exactly what I was looking for but it is a start

https://jsmf.org/meetings/2008/july/social%20norms%20Cialdini.pdf
http://www.stes-apes.med.ulg.ac.be/Documents_electroniques/POP/POP-ADO/ELE%20POP-ADO%20A-8198.pdf
OK, even if we accept that there may be some how, someone, who thinks that drug abuse is more acceptable due to the publication of its horrors. (For argument's sake ). Are you seriously going to argue that this miniscule theory is not overwhelmingly canceled out by the very logical, and realistic, and proven, and scientific fact - that awareness of the dangers, the risk factors, the treatment and help options available will most certainly save lives???

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #399 on: November 29, 2016, 06:09:03 PM »
OK, even if we accept that there may be some how, someone, who thinks that drug abuse is more acceptable due to the publication of its horrors. (For argument's sake ). Are you seriously going to argue that this miniscule theory is not overwhelmingly canceled out by the very logical, and realistic, and proven, and scientific fact - that awareness of the dangers, the risk factors, the treatment and help options available will most certainly save lives???
I showed SCIENTIFIC STUDIES which showed the numbers as it being very real. What are you bringing to the table? Can you show any hard facts other than the claim they exist? On what basis do you call their study a miniscule theory and YOUR boich svara proven scientific fact?
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