Silent Killer

[hvaces42]

I am not saying that the issue not be dealt with rather that it be dealt with using EXTREME care and by people who are knowledgable enough about the potential consequences of what they are doing to avoid unintended pitfalls.

The only ones knowlegeable enough in our community are the recoving addicts themselves. Anyone else is unqualified. Rabbonim who dont allow addicts to go to meetings in churches are rotzchim. Therapists that advocate just therapy are being hoodwinked left and righy by addicts who's sole goal is to get over on people to get to the next fix.

Get over this EXTREME care crap and educate the community on the signs of addiction and the recovery aspects. 5% of people who go to GA stop for more than 5 years. Without meetings there is no hope that they would stop at all.

[hvaces42]

-1

Show me an orthodox jewish institution in NYC or Lakewood or monsey, or Miami, or LA, or Chicago or or or that hosts 12 step meetings.

[coralsnake]

Show me an orthodox jewish institution in NYC or Lakewood or monsey, or Miami, or LA, or Chicago or or or that hosts 12 step meetings.

PM if you are truly interested.

A few more (that I know of) now that you widened the area outside NYC and didnt limit it to just shuls.

Im aware of places in 5 out of the 6 cities you mentioned that are either hosted by or geared towards the Jewish community.

[aygart]

Get over this EXTREME care crap and educate the community on the signs of addiction and the recovery aspects. 5% of people who go to GA stop for more than 5 years. Without meetings there is no hope that they would stop at all.

The two are not mutually exclusive. The community can be educated with it being done with extreme care. To do it carelessly and based on the emotions of recovering addicts as opposed to those who know hard numbers and studies of what the proper approach is to educate without exacerbating the issue makes no sense. Do it, but do it RIGHT. Doing it wrong can be counterproductive. We are not dealing with a case where doing the wrong thing is better than doing nothing.

[hvaces42]

The two are not mutually exclusive. The community can be educated with it being done with extreme care. To do it carelessly and based on the emotions of recovering addicts as opposed to those who know hard numbers and studies of what the proper approach is to educate without exacerbating the issue makes no sense. Do it, but do it RIGHT. Doing it wrong can be counterproductive. We are not dealing with a case where doing the wrong thing is better than doing nothing.

I jist cant stand the pussyfooting. In 9th grade it was פתח פתוח. As an adult we call it something else. Extreme care, mameleh, tateleh, shefeleh talk creates a worse atmosphere then just saying it the way it is.

[churnbabychurn]

I showed SCIENTIFIC STUDIES which showed the numbers as it being very real. What are you bringing to the table? Can you show any hard facts other than the claim they exist? On what basis do you call their study a miniscule theory and YOUR boich svara proven scientific fact?

You and your Google.

Wake up and smell the coffee. Parents being aware of the signs of drug abuse before it's out of hand is no boich sevara. It's simple basic common sense.

Not to mention the accepted opinion of every local professional in the field, the rosh yeshivas and many leading rabbonim in Lakewood is to bring as much awareness to the issue as possible.

You're the one digging up ridiculous studies, that have no connection to our community, the type of publicity, or the issue at hand.

Again, please try to paint a realistic scenerio where an at risk person would use hard drugs due to this type of publicity. It's unfathomable. 

[churnbabychurn]

Read the lifelines story in last week's Ami Magazine.

No idea if it's true but it definitely could be...

Basically a young married kollel wife living in jlem was supposed to be looking out for her cousin in sem... Due to her pure heligeh, sheltered education, she missed all the signs that her cousin was using until it was very very late. - cash/items missing, behavior, etc etc.

A little awareness could have saved the situation.

[aygart]

I jist cant stand the pussyfooting. In 9th grade it was פתח פתוח. As an adult we call it something else. Extreme care, mameleh, tateleh, shefeleh talk creates a worse atmosphere then just saying it the way it is.

Who is talking about atmosphere? If all of the well meaning campaigns cause more people to become addicts than they help was it worth it?

You and your Google.

Wake up and smell the coffee. Parents being aware of the signs of drug abuse before it's out of hand is no boich sevara. It's simple basic common sense.

Not to mention the accepted opinion of every local professional in the field, the rosh yeshivas and many leading rabbonim in Lakewood is to bring as much awareness to the issue as possible.

You're the one digging up ridiculous studies, that have no connection to our community, the type of publicity, or the issue at hand.

My original source was not google. Google only helps if you know what to search for.

Of course it is important for parents to be aware. Of course there should be awareness. It simply needs to be done properly. There are ways to do it without the pitfalls. It can be publicized to parents and teachers without publicizing it to potential victims. The type of publicity the studies deal with is primarily publicity in the media and to the masses. Why is an article in The VOice different?  When someone sees that "there are hundreds of kids with this issue" it changes from being "we don't do that" to "some do that". It gives social acceptance. How can seeing someone do it give social acceptance to something a person knows that the vast majority are not doing? The psychologists have all sorts of science about it. The fact is that it exists enough that there is a noticeable rise in people killing themselves after a publicized suicide even though they now that most don't do that. After a murder/suicide there is a rise in multi-fatality car accidents. The numbers are there. Why do you insist on ignoring them baselessly? It is very easy for an askan to say how if there would be more publicity it would help based on it helping a specific aspect of a problem. In order to prevent unwanted and unintended side effects they need to be willing to listen to research others have done. This is no different than what you have in the past discussed about the Lakewood School Board. There may have been an issue with the previous askanim that needed to be resolved and it may or may not have been taken care of but there were harmful side effects. What is the point of ignoring science which can tell you how to avoid them? What do you have against making sure to do it right?

One of the methods discussed to prevent abuse is to create a reverse effect.

Again, please try to paint a realistic scenerio where an at risk person would use hard drugs due to this type of publicity. It's unfathomable. 

How do you expect to fathom the mindset of someone on the road to addiction? Can you fathom the mind of someone who killed himself and his whole family? The numbers show that publicity has an effect on them. Why would you ignore it? By doing so you are taking a big risk. Do you have the research to make that decision?

[aygart]

Read the lifelines story in last week's Ami Magazine.

No idea if it's true but it definitely could be...

Basically a young married kollel wife living in jlem was supposed to be looking out for her cousin in sem... Due to her pure heligeh, sheltered education, she missed all the signs that her cousin was using until it was very very late. - cash/items missing, behavior, etc etc.

A little awareness could have saved the situation.

Of course there are benefits to awareness and it is extremely important, but why do you insist on it being done carelessly? Get it done right and prevent killing one to save the other.

[coralsnake]

This is not an exact science. The benefits of awareness are great. The disadvantages of sticking our heads in the sand are even greater.

[aygart]

This is not an exact science. The benefits of awareness are great. The disadvantages of sticking our heads in the sand are even greater.

1000%
Therefore we should not sick or heads in the sand about the issue itself nor should we respond based on emotion ignoring real issues. We should do it right.

[hvaces42]

1000%
Therefore we should not sick or heads in the sand about the issue itself nor should we respond based on emotion ignoring real issues. We should do it right.

Your "real issues" are really excuses not to deal with it head on.

[churnbabychurn]

@aygart, just fyi, there are plenty of adults at risk. Its not just 15 year olds...
Maybe we shouldn't publicize it though...

[churnbabychurn]

Your "real issues" are really excuses not to deal with it head on.

+1billion. It's obvious.

Though his real issue is that he feels that if good kids learn about drugs they are somewhat tainted. - I appreciate this sentiment. It is actually an integral part of our mahalach in chinuch, it's almost instinct. - protect the kids from seeing or learning about anything negative..

Il post why this is wrong later..

[aygart]

@aygart, just fyi, there are plenty of adults at risk. Its not just 15 year olds...
Maybe we shouldn't publicize it though...

I am sure there are. I gave an illustration. There is a whole world out there where this is a bigger issue than in the frum community which has gone through the numbers and the facts to come up with real and effective methods. We would be better off learning from these than sticking our heads in the sand like you are and just saying emotional slogans to feel like we are doing something. Do something right instead of just doing something for the sake of doing it.

[aygart]

Your "real issues" are really excuses not to deal with it head on.

Just the opposite. Your "doing something" is an excuse for not doing the right thing.

[aygart]

Your "real issues" are really excuses not to deal with it head on.

Your "dealing with it head on" is an excuse not do deal with it properly and effectively with less risk.

[hvaces42]

Just the opposite. Your "doing something" is an excuse for not doing the right thing.

When you walk a mile in my shoes you can judge me.

I knew there was a reason i kept the signature. Youre almost there.

Please PM me your number so i can forward every call i get from people that are looking for my "excuse for not doing the right thing".

[hvaces42]

Your "dealing with it head on" is an excuse not do deal with it properly and effectively with less risk.

The next time you get scammed by a ponzi schemer, gambler, thief, drug addict, sex addict, alcoholic etc. deal with it properly with less risk. Every one of these and then some are a direct product of not dealing with it head on. Only after it happens do we ask how it happened.

[churnbabychurn]

Your "dealing with it head on" is an excuse not do deal with it properly and effectively with less risk.

Let's hear a constructive suggestion on how to "safely deal with it"