Author Topic: Silent Killer  (Read 213584 times)

Offline aygart

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #420 on: November 29, 2016, 08:59:46 PM »
When you walk a mile in my shoes you can judge me.

I knew there was a reason i kept the signature. Youre almost there.

Please PM me your number so i can forward every call i get from people that are looking for my "excuse for not doing the right thing".
I am not judging you at all. I was trying to make a point that just because I said something should be done with care does not mean nothing should be done. The issue I brought up is real and to ignore it is just as much putting heads in the sand as to do nothing. It seems that you are involved in this issue and I respect you greatly for that. I cannot respect you for attacking me for simply saying that things need to be done with care. If I said it baselessly that would be one thing but these are real studies done by some very respected psychologists based on real numbers. Don't push them off saying that it means doing nothing. Use their advice to help people even more than you are already. That is all I am saying to do. If you have a tool why not use it?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline aygart

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #421 on: November 29, 2016, 09:02:24 PM »
The next time you get scammed by a ponzi schemer, gambler, thief, drug addict, sex addict, alcoholic etc. deal with it properly with less risk. Every one of these and then some are a direct product of not dealing with it head on. Only after it happens do we ask how it happened.
Sometimes they are a product of not dealing with it head on and sometimes they are not. Dealing head on doesn't have to mean ignoring real information out there. Take advantage of their work.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline aygart

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #422 on: November 29, 2016, 09:04:28 PM »
Let's hear a constructive suggestion on how to "safely deal with it"
I don't make any claim to have all the answers, but what is the point in ignoring the studies done by the outside world? What do you gain with that?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #423 on: November 29, 2016, 09:07:16 PM »
I don't make any claim to have all the answers, but what is the point in ignoring the studies done by the outside world? What do you gain with that?
I already answered that even if your studies were applicable, we still have a net benefit from bringing as much awareness as possible.

The danger of ignorance is greater than any potential risk of publicity. No doubt about it.

Offline aygart

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #424 on: November 29, 2016, 09:12:48 PM »
I already answered that even if your studies were applicable, we still have a net benefit from bringing as much awareness as possible.

The danger of ignorance is greater than any potential risk of publicity. No doubt about it.
We can do even better by listening to chochmas hagoyim instead of jumping on anyone who says that maybe things can be improved.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Sport

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #425 on: November 29, 2016, 09:14:02 PM »
Cmiiw but I don't think @aygart is advocating against bringing awareness to the issues. His point was that we should do it in a systematic and evidence based approach. Btw i recall other studies  that came to a similiar conclusion regarding scare tactics having the opposite and negative impact.

Offline aygart

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #426 on: November 29, 2016, 09:14:37 PM »
Cmiiw but I don't think @aygart is advocating against bringing awareness to the issues. His point was that we should do it in a systematic and evidence based approach. Btw i recall other studies  that came to a similiar conclusion regarding scare tactics having the opposite and negative impact.
Exactly
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #427 on: November 29, 2016, 09:20:58 PM »
We can do even better by listening to chochmas hagoyim instead of jumping on anyone who says that maybe things can be improved.
Any professional in this field Jewish or not, agrees that education is key.
This is the standard conventional wisdom. Here's a goyishe example.

This should be in the voice. Every single week!!


Offline Sport

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #428 on: November 29, 2016, 09:25:01 PM »
Any professional in this field Jewish or not, agrees that education is key.
This is the standard conventional wisdom. Here's a goyishe example.

This should be in the voice. Every single week!!


I agree education and awareness are key and desperately needed. There are diffrent ways to approach these goals is all I'm saying.

Offline aygart

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #429 on: November 29, 2016, 09:26:21 PM »
Any professional in this field Jewish or not, agrees that education is key.
This is the standard conventional wisdom. Here's a goyishe example.

This should be in the voice. Every single week!!


Absolutely. Tell them how horrible it is, but without saying there are tons of kids with the problem in the frum world.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #430 on: November 29, 2016, 09:27:55 PM »
I agree education and awareness are key and desperately needed. There are diffrent ways to approach these goals is all I'm saying.
Y'all just uncomfortable with this. You seem to be nitpicking excuses to avoid the topic. No one can articulate what's wrong.. it's more "ess past nisht" to publicly talk about such horrible things.

Not you personally, just a broad sentiment in the community...

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #431 on: November 29, 2016, 09:30:47 PM »
Absolutely. Tell them how horrible it is, but without saying there are tons of kids with the problem in the frum world.
But you also explain to kids exactly how they can actually be tempted, offered, pressured, enticed. -  By other frum kids and frum adult drug pushers within the community!!!

Offline Sport

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #432 on: November 29, 2016, 09:32:36 PM »
Y'all just uncomfortable with this. You seem to be nitpicking excuses to avoid the topic. No one can articulate what's wrong.. it's more "ess past nisht" to publicly talk about such horrible things.

Not you personally, just a broad sentiment in the community...
Not at all. Can't speak for "y'all" but  I've always been an advocate for spreading awareness.

Offline aygart

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #433 on: November 29, 2016, 09:37:27 PM »
Y'all just uncomfortable with this. You seem to be nitpicking excuses to avoid the topic. No one can articulate what's wrong.. it's more "ess past nisht" to publicly talk about such horrible things.

Not you personally, just a broad sentiment in the community...
When you have that attitude and attack when people say that a certain issue should be considered it prevents you from improving your methods. Robert Cialdini is a renowned expert in how people get influenced and the author of some of the most basic books on this matter. He was hired by the Obama campaign to hone their message to influence people. There are methods discussed in the papers I linked to which work on getting the best of all worlds. Don't attack me for saying they should be considered. There are ways to take them into consideration. AN example is how one should be careful when discussing it to focus on the horrors of addiction without focusing on whether or not it is prevelant. Can that be honed better? Probably. Instead of saying that improving means doing nothing lets get to know the right methods and help those who need it without drumming up more business.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline aygart

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #434 on: November 29, 2016, 09:38:29 PM »
But you also explain to kids exactly how they can actually be tempted, offered, pressured, enticed. -  By other frum kids and frum adult drug pushers within the community!!!

Yes, the message needs to be thought through very well before to have the best effect with the least risk, but my point is that within the message and the awareness it can be done in different ways and it is important to take aspect other than just the greatest shock and awe into account.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #435 on: November 29, 2016, 09:42:29 PM »
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Offline elit

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #436 on: November 29, 2016, 09:47:07 PM »
If you have seen my other comments on these topics here you would know that I am a hardcore advocate of awareness etc... however aygart is making one valid point and I am not sure you have to throw the kitchen sink at him for it. I remember reading that the "say no to drugs" campaign from the 90s that they spent.millions on was an epic failure.... so we definitely should be raising awareness and removing stigmas increasing funding and resources but certainly care should be taken to make sure it's done properly

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #437 on: November 29, 2016, 09:54:36 PM »
If you have seen my other comments on these topics here you would know that I am a hardcore advocate of awareness etc... however aygart is making one valid point and I am not sure you have to throw the kitchen sink at him for it. I remember reading that the "say no to drugs" campaign from the 90s that they spent.millions on was an epic failure.... so we definitely should be raising awareness and removing stigmas increasing funding and resources but certainly care should be taken to make sure it's done properly
I hear the concern and addressed it already.

Professionals and rabbonim have considered this angle and still approved of publicizing the prevalence within the community. It is a crucial piece of the picture.

You cant bring awareness and educate about an issue that many are under the impression that it doesn't exist!

Why would anyone care if it is not prevalent?


Offline aygart

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #438 on: November 29, 2016, 09:54:51 PM »
If you have seen my other comments on these topics here you would know that I am a hardcore advocate of awareness etc... however aygart is making one valid point and I am not sure you have to throw the kitchen sink at him for it. I remember reading that the "say no to drugs" campaign from the 90s that they spent.millions on was an epic failure.... so we definitely should be raising awareness and removing stigmas increasing funding and resources but certainly care should be taken to make sure it's done properly
I can't believe that what I wrote is even controversial.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #439 on: November 29, 2016, 09:55:08 PM »
If you have seen my other comments on these topics here you would know that I am a hardcore advocate of awareness etc... however aygart is making one valid point and I am not sure you have to throw the kitchen sink at him for it. I remember reading that the "say no to drugs" campaign from the 90s that they spent.millions on was an epic failure.... so we definitely should be raising awareness and removing stigmas increasing funding and resources but certainly care should be taken to make sure it's done properly
Please explain how it can be done properly, without exposing kids to some of it. I dont advocate teaching sex ed or other things in school.

However, My Bar mitzvah age son's classmates are gambling on football games every week. Its small money...by our standards. But one out of 30 is bound to lose more than he can afford. This is in a mainstream brooklyn yeshivah. How do you not explain the dangers of compulsive gambling to 13 year olds.
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