Author Topic: Silent Killer  (Read 213467 times)

Offline aygart

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #520 on: December 22, 2016, 02:44:27 PM »
I will not discuss this this topic further with you as you're position is ridiculous, pathetic & indefensible.

Okaaaay. You sound very rational.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline beeweegee

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #521 on: December 22, 2016, 02:44:50 PM »
Obviously. However...
What are said non-existent unintended consequences? And whose abilities to help are being clouded by them?

Offline aygart

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #522 on: December 22, 2016, 02:46:08 PM »
Obviously. However anyone who goes ahead and says anything at all must be using some code and really means that nothing should be done.

Translated
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #523 on: December 22, 2016, 02:49:39 PM »
What are said non-existent unintended consequences? And whose abilities to help are being clouded by them?
Rabbi aygart has been saying that professionals enlightening our community to the dangers of addiction must do so very carefully so as to avoid unintended consequences. Presumably he means that the benefit of education must be weighed against some stupid kid trying drugs or acting out on some other addiction as a result of said education. That sort of thinking has Brisk chumrah written all over it.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #524 on: December 22, 2016, 02:50:40 PM »
Your irrational, baseless, fabricated fear of non-existent unintended consequences clouds your intent and ability to help.
You don't think that random people online when unguided can do things with unintended consequences?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #525 on: December 22, 2016, 02:53:07 PM »
You don't think that random people online when unguided can do things with unintended consequences?

I will not discuss this this topic further with you as you're position is ridiculous, pathetic & indefensible.

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Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #526 on: December 22, 2016, 02:56:12 PM »
Your irrational, baseless, fabricated fear of non-existent unintended consequences clouds your intent and ability to help.

Your hot headed, angry knee jerk argumentative stance has clouded your ability to even possess a modicum of elementary school level reading comprehension.

See? It's not so difficult to throw out a sharp worded comment in the midst of an argument. The thing is, those lines are usually low on substance, no matter how good they make you feel.

Aygart provided sources from experts who are the very least as qualified as the ones you purport he wants to have overridden by rabbinical authority, if not more so. The stupidity of this argument is that you and and he are in strong agreement, but you have such a strong anger to the community's response to this issue  (judging by your comments, it is likely justified, based on prior experience) that you automatically assigned contradictory opinions and viewpoints he never stated.

Peace out.

Offline aygart

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #527 on: December 22, 2016, 02:59:35 PM »
Rabbi aygart has been saying that professionals enlightening our community to the dangers of addiction must do so very carefully so as to avoid unintended consequences. Presumably he means that the benefit of education must be weighed against some stupid kid trying drugs or acting out on some other addiction as a result of said education. That sort of thinking has Brisk chumrah written all over it.
I said no such thing and have repeatedly tried to no avail to correct your twisted misinterpretation of my words. A professional will know on their own to do it carefully and not with wanton abandon yelling from the rooftops. That is a part of what makes them into a professional-that they know what they should do and what they shouldn't do. It is the non-professionals and self-proclaimed "professionals" I am concerned about. Unfortunately, your reaction of twisting my words and creating straw men is only strengthening this concern.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline JTZ

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #528 on: December 22, 2016, 03:00:16 PM »
Treating drug addiction should be done under a professionals supervision. Making the community aware of the problem can be done by anyone.
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Offline aygart

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #529 on: December 22, 2016, 03:00:23 PM »
Your hot headed, angry knee jerk argumentative stance has clouded your ability to even possess a modicum of elementary school level reading comprehension.

See? It's not so difficult to throw out a sharp worded comment in the midst of an argument. The thing is, those lines are usually low on substance, no matter how good they make you feel.

Aygart provided sources from experts who are the very least as qualified as the ones you purport he wants to have overridden by rabbinical authority, if not more so. The stupidity of this argument is that you and and he are in strong agreement, but you have such a strong anger to the community's response to this issue  (judging by your comments, it is likely justified, based on prior experience) that you automatically assigned contradictory opinions and viewpoints he never stated.

Peace out.
Thank you for basing your opinion on what I wrote and not some hallucination of what I am trying to say.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline beeweegee

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #530 on: December 22, 2016, 03:01:14 PM »
Rabbi aygart has been saying that professionals enlightening our community to the dangers of addiction must do so very carefully so as to avoid unintended consequences. Presumably he means that the benefit of education must be weighed against some stupid kid trying drugs or acting out on some other addiction as a result of said education. That sort of thinking has Brisk chumrah written all over it.
Perhaps there may be some merit to that argument, but then it can be argued that education about any kind of danger or negative thing may promote it, so never educate...

It's a fine line. I am in the mental health field, and I actually saw a case where a teenage Orthodox girl who was going through a tough time began cutting after being exposed to (read: educated about) the concept of self-injury on a forum online. Until then, she had never thought of it, and certainly never considered doing it. Education is essential, but we do need to be careful about who we educate, why we are educating them, and in what way we do it.

Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #531 on: December 22, 2016, 03:03:20 PM »
Treating drug addiction should be done under a professionals supervision. Making the community aware of the problem can be done by anyone who has a very good understanding of the problem and how to deal with it.
FTFY
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Offline JTZ

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #532 on: December 22, 2016, 03:04:54 PM »
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #533 on: December 22, 2016, 03:05:12 PM »
not that I know of.
That was his response to whether he knows anyone who has been harmed by unintended consequences. Yet he still relies on some google researched farcical research instead of real life experience that contradicts that "study".

So yes, I'm possed off at the community for sweeping it under the rug and continually saying that they are dealing with the issue when in fact they are not. There are individuals of late who have taken it to the community the way it has to be taken. I agree that the most recent events in Lakewood were very productive.

I do not agree though that our community needs to be sheltered from education due to potential unintended consequences. That to me smacks of parochialism and chumrah-based thinking.
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Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #534 on: December 22, 2016, 03:05:58 PM »
That's not actually correct.
I guess you're right if you're just talking about awareness, anything more than that shouldn't be done by people without am understanding of the problem.
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Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #535 on: December 22, 2016, 03:07:04 PM »
Rabbi aygart

I must give you kudos for using "Rabbi" as a pejorative. Nicely done.

Offline JTZ

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #536 on: December 22, 2016, 03:08:23 PM »
I do not agree though that our community needs to be sheltered from education due to potential unintended consequences.
...but this works great. Just look at the Catholic Church if anyone needs an example.
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Offline JTZ

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #537 on: December 22, 2016, 03:08:59 PM »
I guess you're right if you're just talking about awareness,
That is the first step.
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #538 on: December 22, 2016, 03:12:52 PM »
Perhaps there may be some merit to that argument, but then it can be argued that education about any kind of danger or negative thing may promote it, so never educate...

It's a fine line. I am in the mental health field, and I actually saw a case where a teenage Orthodox girl who was going through a tough time began cutting after being exposed to (read: educated about) the concept of self-injury on a forum online. Until then, she had never thought of it, and certainly never considered doing it. Education is essential, but we do need to be careful about who we educate, why we are educating them, and in what way we do it.
Drugs are dangerous. Many teens your age are doing drugs. Over the last year xx amount have died from unintended overdoses of drugs. These teens cannot stop taking drugs because they are addicted. They need more and more until it gets out of hand. If you know or suspect thatbone of yoir friends are on drugs or at risk of doing drugs please let an adult know. There will be no consequences to you and you may save a life.

The above is something i never heard growing up in yeshiva and i doubt that those lines are spoken in yeshiva today. What is the downside of saying that? They may be too temimusdik that saying the word drugs will lead them to try drugs. Maybe. Im willing to take that risk.
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Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #539 on: December 22, 2016, 03:13:51 PM »
I must give you kudos for using "Rabbi" as a pejorative. Nicely done.
It was not at all intended that way.
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