Silent Killer

[Yehuda57]

That was his response to whether he knows anyone who has been harmed by unintended consequences. Yet he still relies on some google researched farcical research instead of real life experience that contradicts that "study".

So yes, I'm possed off at the community for sweeping it under the rug and continually saying that they are dealing with the issue when in fact they are not. There are individuals of late who have taken it to the community the way it has to be taken. I agree that the most recent events in Lakewood were very productive.

I do not agree though that our community needs to be sheltered from education due to potential unintended consequences. That to me smacks of parochialism and chumrah-based thinking.

So you actually would prefer anonymous anecdotal evidence over peer reviewed science? And you are accusing others of irrationality?
 

[hvaces42]

Go back to the beginning of the thread. Read what was written and then take back your asinine remarks.

[CS1]

That is the first step.

-1
The step before that is several huge doses of prevention. Starting young. That can/should also be done by professionals. Professionals can teach rabbis how it's done.

Prevention, Education, Positive Role Modeling, Connection, Awareness to the pre-cursors of the addictions, and who is at-risk = all.

(Whether genetically pre-dispositioned, or watching others, or being a victim of a past experience, or online viewing/experimenting.) Schools can address this prevention and education directly to students via professional whole-class confidential question and answer sessions.Students can send up questions anonymously. Very effective. Especially if an 'outsider'/professional is the only one in charge in the room.

[beeweegee]

Drugs are dangerous. Many teens your age are doing drugs. Over the last year xx amount have died from unintended overdoses of drugs. These teens cannot stop taking drugs because they are addicted. They need more and more until it gets out of hand. If you know or suspect thatbone of yoir friends are on drugs or at risk of doing drugs please let an adult know. There will be no consequences to you and you may save a life.

The above is something i never heard growing up in yeshiva and i doubt that those lines are spoken in yeshiva today. What is the downside of saying that? They may be too temimusdik that saying the word drugs will lead them to try drugs. Maybe. Im willing to take that risk.

The particular medium of education I was referring to (that the girl I mentioned used) was a forum intended to educate and help teens. In this case (and likely others), it backfired, as she was exposed to extensive threads detailing ideas she had never been exposed to, and the knowledge that others in her situation were doing this simultaneously desensitized her it it. What you wrote above sounds fine - I was just saying that not all "education" is appropriate or constructive, and MAY at times be inappropriate and destructive.

[aygart]

That was his response to whether he knows anyone who has been harmed by unintended consequences.

I am thankfully fortunate enough that there is no one who I know well enough to be privy to that information who suffered from addiction. I did not come across these studies via google rather they were used to bring out an unrelated point by a very highly credentialed mental health professional in a discussion about a totally unrelated topic. As beeweegee pointed out, these things do happen. There is no real good way to know if any individual case was somehow affected by the publicity since its effects according to their findings are subconscious. I never said that our community needs to be sheltered from education and would strongly disagree with anyone who feels that way. That does not mean that ALL publicity is good no matter how it is done.

[beeweegee]

I am thankfully fortunate enough that there is no one who I know well enough to be privy to that information who suffered from addiction. I did not come across these studies via google rather they were used to bring out an unrelated point by a very highly credentialed mental health professional in a discussion about a totally unrelated topic. As beeweegee pointed out, these things do happen. There is no real good way to know if any individual case was somehow affected by the publicity since its effects according to their findings are subconscious. I never said that our community needs to be sheltered from education and would strongly disagree with anyone who feels that way. That does not mean that ALL publicity is good no matter how it is done.

Don't want to read >500 posts - mind linking to the article you're referring to?

[aygart]

Drugs are dangerous. Over the last year xx amount have died from unintended overdoses of drugs. Some teens cannot stop taking drugs because they are addicted. They need more and more until it gets out of hand. If you know or suspect thatbone of yoir friends are on drugs or at risk of doing drugs please let an adult know.

Is this version with my tweaks a better way to teach it? I don't know, but those trained and familiar with real statistics should.

[aygart]

Don't want to read >500 posts - mind linking to the article you're referring to?

I would need to find the link. I do remember that it was not about drugs but suicide (which was the original topic of this thread) and involved Cialdinni.

[aygart]

The particular medium of education I was referring to (that the girl I mentioned used) was a forum intended to educate and help teens. In this case (and likely others), it backfired, as she was exposed to extensive threads detailing ideas she had never been exposed to, and the knowledge that others in her situation were doing this simultaneously desensitized her it it. What you wrote above sounds fine - I was just saying that not all "education" is appropriate or constructive, and MAY at times be inappropriate and destructive.

This seems to me to be the exact point I was trying to make.

[hvaces42]

I am thankfully fortunate enough that there is no one who I know well enough to be privy to that information who suffered from addiction. I did not come across these studies via google rather they were used to bring out an unrelated point by a very highly credentialed mental health professional in a discussion about a totally unrelated topic. As beeweegee pointed out, these things do happen. There is no real good way to know if any individual case was somehow affected by the publicity since its effects according to their findings are subconscious. I never said that our community needs to be sheltered from education and would strongly disagree with anyone who feels that way. That does not mean that ALL publicity is good no matter how it is done.

Yes these things happen, that is why "war stories" are discouraged in certain meetings because you just may teach someone a new way to do xxxxx.

[aygart]

Yes these things happen, that is why "war stories" are discouraged in certain meetings because you just may teach someone a new way to do xxxxx.

and should all the more so be a reason why any public message should be tweaked by trained professionals (I added trained so you shouldn't think "professionals" is a code for "non-professionals") to ensure that random people don't get taught a new way or get desensitized as beeweegee wrote. Is that something you disagree with?

[JTZ]

-1
The step before that is several huge doses of prevention. Starting young. That can/should also be done by professionals. Professionals can teach rabbis how it's done.

Prevention, Education, Positive Role Modeling, Connection, Awareness to the pre-cursors of the addictions, and who is at-risk = all.

(Whether genetically pre-dispositioned, or watching others, or being a victim of a past experience, or online viewing/experimenting.) Schools can address this prevention and education directly to students via professional whole-class confidential question and answer sessions.Students can send up questions anonymously. Very effective. Especially if an 'outsider'/professional is the only one in charge in the room.

If they are not even aware there is a problem how are you going to get them to do any of this?

[CS1]

If they are not even aware there is a problem how are you going to get them to do any of this?

they are aware. They must be aware -- those who are not aware must delegate to someone else. By 5777/2017, if they are clueless and blind, then others must step in for the sake of the future.

(I taught 10-yrs old over a decade ago, for several years. We learned to say "no" to anything like this or alcohol, and to reach out to adults if pressured, in pain, or alone. Even at that age, they can internalize it and bring out the facts and skills when they need it in their teen years.) 

[hvaces42]

and should all the more so be a reason why any public message should be tweaked by trained professionals (I added trained so you shouldn't think "professionals" is a code for "non-professionals") to ensure that random people don't get taught a new way or get desensitized as beeweegee wrote. Is that something you disagree with?

Yes

[aygart]

Yes

why?

[hvaces42]

why?

Becausr that watered down message hasnt been working. Our community has been coddled and babied to death, literally.

[hvaces42]

Our kids are falling like flies and you worry about consequences of the message. Listen to yourself.

[aygart]

Becausr that watered down message hasnt been working. Our community has been coddled and babied to death, literally.

You don't think that trained professionals can take that into account without watering down the message in a way that it would not be effective? Who do you think WOULD be best at getting out the message? Only recovered people?

[churnbabychurn]

http://www.thejewishstar.com/stories/How-did-my-son-product-of-an-Orthodox-family-educated-in-a-yeshiva-become-an-addict,11617

Also, see the comment.. nebach.

[aygart]

Our kids are falling like flies and you worry about consequences of the message. Listen to yourself.

What percentage of kids in the Orthodox Jewish education system would you estimate are addicted? (Even .000001% is too high and warrants a response-and no I don't think it is that low)