Author Topic: Silent Killer  (Read 66795 times)

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 6930
  • Total likes: 1590
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #570 on: December 22, 2016, 05:01:13 PM »
Agree with both of you on this. However, the vetting process of professionals who are allowed to mold that message is whats broken as well.
This is all I was saying the entire time. All you needed to do was open your ears instead of fitting me into some pre-conceived notions.

The vetting process may well be broken. I have no knowledge of that.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 6930
  • Total likes: 1590
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #571 on: December 22, 2016, 05:03:09 PM »
Depends on the demographic and particular grade/age. Recent numbers aren't quite 20%, but certainly far higher than the above-mentioned .001%. If I recall correctly, 12th graders were around 5 or 6% for daily marijuana use, and less for other drugs. As an aside, it's interesting that recent studies have found a decline in high school drug use, but also a decline in the perceived risk of harm.
The 20% was intentionally high and the .00001% was intentionally low.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 6930
  • Total likes: 1590
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #572 on: December 22, 2016, 05:04:46 PM »
In the frum community I would say that it's a higher percentage than kids with cancer.

That enough?
Enough for it to be important to do something about hte problem? ABSOLUTELY even if it is much less than that.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline CS1

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Feb 2014
  • Posts: 3655
  • Total likes: 44
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
    • California Gourmet Premium Chocolate
  • Location: United States
  • Programs: DDSLA, DDSCLE, MarriottSPGPlat Feb2020
Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #573 on: December 22, 2016, 05:07:56 PM »
In the frum community I would say that it's a higher percentage than kids with cancer.

That enough?

YES! Especially, if done correctly: early enough, and with education, prevention, connection, and constant updates, then it's preventable.

Offline dmdmoses46

  • Dansdeals Silver Elite
  • **
  • Join Date: Aug 2015
  • Posts: 72
  • Total likes: 2
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #574 on: December 22, 2016, 06:25:05 PM »
the problem is not the drug addiction per se the problem that these kids are not doing anything in yeshiva and they are not feeling like they are doing anything with their life and thats why they turn to drugs everyone is making like it's a mental illness which we don't want to confront that is missing the boat with the underlying issue here

Offline Super Speed

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2013
  • Posts: 5138
  • Total likes: 37
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Programs: SPG Gold, Hilton Gold, Hyatt Platinum, Marriott Gold, Hertz Presidents Circle, Avis First, National Executive Elite, Sixt Platinum.
Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #575 on: December 22, 2016, 10:52:36 PM »
Rabbi aygart has been saying that professionals enlightening our community to the dangers of addiction must do so very carefully so as to avoid unintended consequences. Presumably he means that the benefit of education must be weighed against some stupid kid trying drugs or acting out on some other addiction as a result of said education. That sort of thinking has Brisk chumrah written all over it.
I think you being personally involved in so many of these cases is clouding your judgment. And the way you are speaking during these arguments show that all to well.
I am not taking sides here but argue coherently and stop sticking words into Aygarts mouth.

Offline hvaces42

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Nov 2013
  • Posts: 4264
  • Total likes: 597
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #576 on: December 22, 2016, 11:18:37 PM »
I think you being personally involved in so many of these cases is clouding your judgment. And the way you are speaking during these arguments show that all to well.
I am not taking sides here but argue coherently and stop sticking words into Aygarts mouth.
Thank you for your imput.
Fair warning - Any PMs sent in response to forum posts are fair game for ridicule in public.

Offline Talmid Muvhak

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: Mar 2014
  • Posts: 413
  • Total likes: 16
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: העיר התורה
Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #577 on: December 23, 2016, 02:33:41 AM »
Enough for it to be important to do something about hte problem? ABSOLUTELY even if it is much less than that.
כל המקיים נפש אחת מישראל....
If we look at these kids as individuals and see what THEIR needs are and where their place in Klal Yisroel is and help them to go in their way חנוך לנער על פי דרכו and not to fit into a mold they don't fit into then they will be happy and fulfilled and not looking for other highs. If you speak to a lot of these kids you see that what is on their minds is just being who they are.
וצדיק באמונתו יחיה

Offline CS1

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Feb 2014
  • Posts: 3655
  • Total likes: 44
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
    • California Gourmet Premium Chocolate
  • Location: United States
  • Programs: DDSLA, DDSCLE, MarriottSPGPlat Feb2020
Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #578 on: December 23, 2016, 02:39:55 AM »
the problem is not the drug addiction per se the problem that these kids are not doing anything in yeshiva and they are not feeling like they are doing anything with their life and thats why they turn to drugs everyone is making like it's a mental illness which we don't want to confront that is missing the boat with the underlying issue here

that is why prevention and education is so important. Education is not just typical yeshiva learning. It's other hands-on, practical, life-saving education in other fields of assistance, invention, and helping/improving others.

Offline Talmid Muvhak

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: Mar 2014
  • Posts: 413
  • Total likes: 16
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: העיר התורה
Silent Killer
« Reply #579 on: December 23, 2016, 02:45:27 AM »
the problem is not the drug addiction per se the problem that these kids are not doing anything in yeshiva and they are not feeling like they are doing anything with their life and thats why they turn to drugs everyone is making like it's a mental illness which we don't want to confront that is missing the boat with the underlying issue here
And the solution is finding a way for them to be productive. All is not lost, people are coming around even outside the forums. I was speaking to one of the menahalim of one of the biggest chedarim in the USA last week about this and he said how he is excited that he will be able to send to new Mesivtas that are "programs" for these boys as opposed to sending to a particular Mesivta run by someone in chinuch who "wants to say a shiur" to them.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2016, 03:07:20 AM by Talmid Muvhak »
וצדיק באמונתו יחיה

Offline thaber

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 2812
  • Total likes: 133
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
    • View Profile
Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #580 on: December 23, 2016, 11:45:23 AM »
That letter is eye-opening. If the husband was bringing ham into the bathroom to eat, then don't you think that the rabbis would work harder to put an end to it!?!
No I don't.
Do you not know anyone who is mechalel Shabbbos in the bathroom? Were the Rabbi's able to stop him/her?
Why does this have to be about the Rabbi's? No one, in close to 600 posts, has pointed to a Rabbi who said - don't educate, don't tell anyone, drugs isn't an issue. The closest you got was a possible Rabbinic opinion to not go into a church for a meeting if other meetings are available. And no one had a source for that either.
The most you'll find is a Rabbi who is trying to protect the dignity of the family of an addict, because that is what said family wants. With huge respect and kudos to Mrs. maisel, not everyone wants to go public with their spouse's addiction, or even their child's heroin overdose. Are they not entitled to that privacy? Yes, it may result in unintended 'sweeping under the carpet'. But believe me, there are hundreds of 'Rabbi's' who lose more sleep individually than we all did collectively over this issue.

And as far as your ten year old students - you probably didn't help them, according to many recent studies, Education needs to be cutting edge, guided by skilled and well read professionals, and yes, supported by Rabbinic Authorities.
https://thinkprogress.org/the-disastrous-legacy-of-nancy-reagans-just-say-no-campaign-fd24570bf109#.fsbbvmoby
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-just-say-no-doesnt-work/

Offline hvaces42

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Nov 2013
  • Posts: 4264
  • Total likes: 597
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #581 on: December 23, 2016, 12:31:45 PM »
But believe me, there are hundreds of 'Rabbi's' who lose more sleep individually than we all did collectively over this issue.

They only mainly lose sleep over it because they are not equipped to deal with it. Incidental experience alert: Rabbi tells wife of addict that they only have a shalom bayis problem and should work on that. Rebbetzin refers her to addiction specialist!
Fair warning - Any PMs sent in response to forum posts are fair game for ridicule in public.

Offline thaber

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 2812
  • Total likes: 133
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
    • View Profile
Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #582 on: December 23, 2016, 12:43:46 PM »
They only mainly lose sleep over it because they are not equipped to deal with it. Incidental experience alert: Rabbi tells wife of addict that they only have a shalom bayis problem and should work on that. Rebbetzin refers her to addiction specialist!
With all due respect to your experience in the field, that's baloney. I know first hand. As a simple example, at the recent Agudah Convention there was a closed door session with Mental Health professionals and very significant Rabbonim, who consult with them and refer patients to them on a multiple times a day basis. I have first hand knowledge of many, many such incidents.

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 6930
  • Total likes: 1590
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #583 on: December 23, 2016, 12:47:40 PM »
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline hvaces42

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Nov 2013
  • Posts: 4264
  • Total likes: 597
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #584 on: December 23, 2016, 12:50:20 PM »
With all due respect to your experience in the field, that's baloney. I know first hand. As a simple example, at the recent Agudah Convention there was a closed door session with Mental Health professionals and very significant Rabbonim, who consult with them and refer patients to them on a multiple times a day basis. I have first hand knowledge of many, many such incidents.
I agree with you in that aspect. Those rabbonim lose sleep over many klal issues. But your run of the mill shteeble rabbi is not equipped, at all. Again, incidental experience alert: Well educated YU graduate pulpit Rabbi had no clue his congregant was an addict when the behavior affected the Rabbi himself.
Fair warning - Any PMs sent in response to forum posts are fair game for ridicule in public.