Author Topic: Silent Killer  (Read 213542 times)

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #620 on: June 25, 2017, 03:10:25 PM »
https://www.thestreet.com/story/14193443/1/tobacco-industry-snuffing-out-cigarettes-as-vaping-heated-tobacco-take-hold.html?cm_ven=RSSFeed
So continue to stigmatize people who have an addiction. Smoking is cured. Vaping is good. What other fallacies will you be promoting today?
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Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #621 on: June 25, 2017, 03:13:01 PM »
If so we should make sure that the stigma stays so that more and more people would have that as an incentive to hold themselves back.
I hope that is tongue in cheek. If you're serious about that please say so clearly. I think that is the ultimate comment that leaves me speechless.
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Online aygart

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #622 on: June 25, 2017, 03:13:35 PM »
So continue to stigmatize people who have an addiction. Smoking is cured. Vaping is good. What other fallacies will you be promoting today?
This does not even deserve an answer. You are making straw man arguments now. Keep arguing with what you imagined that I said and then you can imagine me arguing back.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #623 on: June 25, 2017, 03:14:45 PM »
This does not even deserve an answer. You are making straw man arguments now. Keep arguing with what you imagined that I said and then you can imagine me arguing back.
Next is the no true Scotsman statement. Predictable.
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Online aygart

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #624 on: June 25, 2017, 03:21:38 PM »
I hope that is tongue in cheek. If you're serious about that please say so clearly. I think that is the ultimate comment that leaves me speechless.
It is all a fine balance. If there are those who will be helped by removing the stigma then that is an argument to remove it. The issue is that as you agreed the stigma itself has a very positive side to it in that it prevents some from needing the help in the first place. If you remove the stigma it will help some who need it but also create more need for the help. This is all the logical conclusion of what you said.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Online aygart

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #625 on: June 25, 2017, 03:22:24 PM »
Next is the no true Scotsman statement. Predictable.
A second ago you accused me of fallacies.

Either way, I consider my reputation of avoiding poor logic to be a badge of honor. You can continue making fun of logical reasoning. That would make you illogical.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2017, 03:35:19 PM by aygart »
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Offline yochiek93

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #626 on: June 25, 2017, 03:23:41 PM »
It is all a fine balance. If there are those who will be helped by removing the stigma then that is an argument to remove it. The issue is that as you agreed the stigma itself has a very positive side to it in that it prevents some from needing the help in the first place. If you remove the stigma it will help some who need it but also create more need for the help. This is all the logical conclusion of what you said.
Does the stigma really help those that don't do it because they are afraid?

Offline Shauly101

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #627 on: June 25, 2017, 03:24:44 PM »
From Whatsapp: In the last week we lost 3 young souls to the war with drugs. A 30 year old girl from Flatbush. 22 year old boy from Monsey and a 22 year old girl from Boro Park. I know that people want to keep it quiet - I, Zvi Gluck, ask that we make noise. Lots of it. Maybe if we make more noise, people will get the help they need.  Sadly, many people are looking for help, but can't afford it. And it isn't as popular to pay for someone's rehab as other worthy causes. Let's work together and change that. Let's break the stigma associated with addiction. Let's get people help. And let's stop talking about overdoses and start taking about how people are getting help.

how about preventing ppl from the very start, not to touch this??????

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #628 on: June 25, 2017, 03:28:32 PM »
Does the stigma really help those that don't do it because they are afraid?
I am not sure that afraid is the right word, but would the stigma against doing something hold you back even if you have a taava for it? Sometimes it will prevent it and sometimes the taava is too strong.
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Offline yochiek93

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #629 on: June 25, 2017, 03:29:24 PM »
I am not sure that afraid is the right word, but would the stigma against doing something hold you back even if you have a taava for it? Sometimes it will prevent it and sometimes the taava is too strong.
But even if it holds you back you still need help

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #630 on: June 25, 2017, 03:29:43 PM »
how about preventing ppl from the very start, not to touch this??????
I don't think relying on prevention alone is realistic. That would require 100% success which is unlikely.
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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #631 on: June 25, 2017, 03:30:14 PM »
But even if it holds you back you still need help
True.
The help needed for someone who overcame due to the stigma is much easier than for someone who is addicted.
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Offline yochiek93

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #632 on: June 25, 2017, 03:32:03 PM »
True.
The help needed for someone who overcame due to the stigma is much easier than for someone who is addicted.
So maybe breaking the stigma is the way to go

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #633 on: June 25, 2017, 03:33:26 PM »
So maybe breaking the stigma is the way to go
Did it should be harder to help him since he will not have overcome? I don't understand your reasoning.
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Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #634 on: June 25, 2017, 03:51:09 PM »
Kruma fruma logic. Crawl back into your hole in the sand and stay there. There is an issue, stigma or not, which is not being addressed.
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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #635 on: June 25, 2017, 03:59:40 PM »
Kruma fruma logic. Crawl back into your hole in the sand and stay there. There is an issue, stigma or not, which is not being addressed.
That is a convincing argument ::) must have come from a lot of deep thought.

Looks like you imagined me saying that it should not be addressed. What would be the best way to address it?
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Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #636 on: June 25, 2017, 04:05:20 PM »
That is a convincing argument ::) must have come from a lot of deep thought.

Looks like you imagined me saying that it should not be addressed. What would be the best way to address it?
Read through the thread. Its been laid out quite clearly. Saying that the stigma is helpful is probably the worst possible thing you can say. It shows a callousness that is unbecoming of a Jew.
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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #637 on: June 25, 2017, 04:14:59 PM »
Read through the thread. Its been laid out quite clearly. Saying that the stigma is helpful is probably the worst possible thing you can say. It shows a callousness that is unbecoming of a Jew.
That is an emotional argument not a logical one. If it is helpful to some then it is callous to the those who would be helped by it if it is removed.

If this:
Plenty of people hold themselves back for various reasons including stigma.

Then that means it is helpful for those plenty of people and by removing it you would be taking someone who was doing pretty okay and destroying their life by removing what was the barrier to their becoming addicted. That is pretty callous to throw them under the bus.

Your refusal to see that does not mean that anyone who does feels there is no problem as you keep on doing. That is something purely in your imagination. I have never sadi such a thing or even hinted to it no matter how many times you make straw man arguements like this one.
Your refusal to admit that there is a problem without scientific evidence when the boots on the ground are telling you all you need to know is indeed telling. Keep your head in the sand. Keep finding excuses why you wont believe this or that fact on the ground.
I feel the most callous thing to do is to refuse to see this logical conclusion of what you yourself have said.
It is all a fine balance. If there are those who will be helped by removing the stigma then that is an argument to remove it. The issue is that as you agreed the stigma itself has a very positive side to it in that it prevents some from needing the help in the first place. If you remove the stigma it will help some who need it but also create more need for the help. This is all the logical conclusion of what you said.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #638 on: June 25, 2017, 04:24:33 PM »
You argue as if there is still a debate to be had. When you have issues such as this the lowest commom denominator must be that the benefit of removing the stigma far outweighs any possible benefit you would have from keeping it. Thats not an emotional argument. Thats a rational well thought out and proven argument. You can keep thinking what you wish. The blood of those who refused to seek help because of the stigma is on your hands though.

Tell your story to the children of a mother who refused to go to rehab because she didn't want to ruin her kids chance at good shiduchim. She instead chose to die and have people have rachmunus on her yesomim. You can verify that one story...and continue to allpw the stigma to continue. Their blood is on the hands of those who perpetuate the stigma.
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Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #639 on: June 25, 2017, 04:27:27 PM »
Your statement have proven that you have zero understanding of addiction. You think a silly thing like a stigma can stop someone who has started down the path towards addiction. The only one it helps, maybe, is the person who never starts.
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