Author Topic: Silent Killer  (Read 213481 times)

Offline Sport

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #680 on: June 26, 2017, 05:51:24 PM »
Denial and stigma are not the same thing. Denial can and does happen even where there is no stigma at all. Stigma can be a cause of denial. That does not mean that denial must be caused by stigma. The denial that a parent has if a child is c"v at risk is often guilt and denial of their own failings whether real or imagined. Even if it is not due to anything the parent did wrong which may often be the case they will still feel that guilt.
So then why bring stigma into this conversation? Whats being pushed is Publicizing that there is a real issue in our community and we need to stop being in denial. As you said, it doesn't necessarily remove the stigma.

Offline aygart

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #681 on: June 26, 2017, 06:04:56 PM »
So then why bring stigma into this conversation? Whats being pushed is Publicizing that there is a real issue in our community and we need to stop being in denial. As you said, it doesn't necessarily remove the stigma.
Maybe that is what is being "pushed' by you but not others who want to remove the stigma.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #682 on: June 26, 2017, 06:11:01 PM »
So then why bring stigma into this conversation? Whats being pushed is Publicizing that there is a real issue in our community and we need to stop being in denial. As you said, it doesn't necessarily remove the stigma.
When there is a הקפדה on going to 12 step programs because theyre "goyish" or held in church halls. Or when people look down on participants in such programs instead of recognizing that those people are יחידי סגולה,we have a stigma that is a problem.
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Offline Sport

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #683 on: June 26, 2017, 06:37:13 PM »


When there is a הקפדה on going to 12 step programs because theyre "goyish" or held in church halls. Or when people look down on participants in such programs instead of recognizing that those people are יחידי סגולה,we have a stigma that is a problem.

thats first point is not a stigma, its either being clueless, or ill-advised.

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #684 on: June 26, 2017, 06:40:37 PM »

thats first point is not a stigma, its either being clueless, or ill-advised.
By labeling something like that "goyish" you stigmatize it.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #685 on: June 26, 2017, 07:14:37 PM »
By labeling something like that "goyish" you stigmatize it.
This is something we are definitely in full agreement about
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline BP16

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #686 on: July 04, 2017, 07:50:05 AM »
And it's in the NY Post!

Offline hvaces42

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Offline henche

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #688 on: July 04, 2017, 09:42:07 AM »
When there is a הקפדה on going to 12 step programs because theyre "goyish" or held in church halls. Or when people look down on participants in such programs instead of recognizing that those people are יחידי סגולה,we have a stigma that is a problem.

I'm not aware of the heter to be oveid Avoda zara to cure addiction. 

Offline aygart

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #689 on: July 04, 2017, 09:44:48 AM »
I'm not aware of the heter to be oveid Avoda zara to cure addiction.
There isn't, but there are heterim to go into a church's social hall for things much less important than curing addiction.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #690 on: July 04, 2017, 09:55:48 AM »
I'm not aware of the heter to be oveid Avoda zara to cure addiction.
...and here we go. 12 step programs are not avodah zara. Neither do they require belief in another religion. Where the meetings are held, even if there is avodah zara present, wouldnt come to the level of yehoraig. Stop perpetuating this myth. It doesnt serve anyone.
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Offline Boruch999

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #691 on: July 04, 2017, 10:08:25 AM »
It'a worth knowing that the efficacy of 12 step programs is disputed.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/04/the-irrationality-of-alcoholics-anonymous/386255/
Quote
Alcoholics Anonymous is famously difficult to study. By necessity, it keeps no records of who attends meetings; members come and go and are, of course, anonymous. No conclusive data exist on how well it works. In 2006, the Cochrane Collaboration, a health-care research group, reviewed studies going back to the 1960s and found that “no experimental studies unequivocally demonstrated the effectiveness of AA or [12-step] approaches for reducing alcohol dependence or problems.”

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #692 on: July 04, 2017, 10:11:48 AM »
It'a worth knowing that the efficacy of 12 step programs is disputed.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/04/the-irrationality-of-alcoholics-anonymous/386255/
It works 100% of the time for the people that continue to go to it
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Offline Boruch999

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #693 on: July 04, 2017, 10:12:56 AM »
It works 100% of the time for the people that continue to go to it

That's like saying it works 100% of the time for people it works for.

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #694 on: July 04, 2017, 10:13:36 AM »
Can someone make a wiki of excuses for addicts not to get help?
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Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #695 on: July 04, 2017, 10:14:23 AM »
That's like saying it works 100% of the time for people it works for.
Nuance is not your strong suit. Huge difference from What i said to what you said.
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Offline Boruch999

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #696 on: July 04, 2017, 10:16:20 AM »
Can someone make a wiki of excuses for addicts not to get help?
You've misunderstood me. I am not advocating for addicts not to get help.  I just said that it's worth knowing that the 12 step program doesn't seem to work for everyone. There are other options.

Offline aygart

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #697 on: July 04, 2017, 10:17:01 AM »
You've misunderstood me. I am not advocating for addicts not to get help.  I just said that it's worth knowing that the 12 step program doesn't seem to work for everyone. There are other options.
There is NOTHING which works for EVERYONE.
Doing NOTHING works for NO ONE>
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Boruch999

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #698 on: July 04, 2017, 10:22:05 AM »
Nuance is not your strong suit. Huge difference from What i said to what you said.
The personal attack did not enhance your argument.  Many try AA and drop out, often after a lapse.  AA did not work for them.  Is it because they stopped going to meetings?  How many times must they go back before exploring other options?

Offline Boruch999

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #699 on: July 04, 2017, 10:22:41 AM »
There is NOTHING which works for EVERYONE.
Doing NOTHING works for NO ONE>
You've misunderstood me. I am not advocating for addicts not to get help.  I just said that it's worth knowing that the 12 step program doesn't seem to work for everyone. There are other options.