Silent Killer

[aygart]

SHould I just reply back with my original response to that post of yours? Of course it doesn't work for everyone and of course there are other options.

[Boruch999]

SHould I just reply back with my original response to that post of yours? Of course it doesn't work for everyone and of course there are other options.

I'm sorry for stating the obvious.  I have a relative who dispared of recovery after trying AA multiple times.  He was unaware of other options.

[aygart]

I'm sorry for stating the obvious.  I have a relative who dispared of recovery after trying AA multiple times.  He was unaware of other options.

This?
http://www.salon.com/2014/03/23/the_pseudo_science_of_alcoholics_anonymous_theres_a_better_way_to_treat_addiction/

[thaber]

  Is it because they stopped going to meetings?

Not arguing that it doesn't work for everyone, but the people it works for generally continue to go to meetings regularly for years and years after they become sober. And it does work for a lot of people, and saves their lives. It also makes their lives more meaningful and fulfilling, due to the spiritual angle, which, among other benefits, helps prevent relapse

[hvaces42]

The personal attack did not enhance your argument.  Many try AA and drop out, often after a lapse.  AA did not work for them.  Is it because they stopped going to meetings?  How many times must they go back before exploring other options?

Relapse = choice made
Anyone i know who stuck with any 12 step program and went back after a relapse was succesful. Rehab is a good jumpstart.
Also, any relapse that occurs is because the person was not using the tools of the program by avoiding people places or things that can lead to such relapse.

[aygart]

Relapse = choice made
Anyone i know who stuck with any 12 step program and went back after a relapse was succesful. Rehab is a good jumpstart.
Also, any relapse that occurs is because the person was not using the tools of the program by avoiding people places or things that can lead to such relapse.

Why is that more of a choice made than the original addiction?

According to your own theory that some people are predisposed to addiction, what percentage of those are also predisposed to being unable to commit to the 12 step program?

Like everything else, it works for those that it works for.

[hvaces42]

Nobody wakes up one day and says I want to be an addict today. But once you've found out that you have an issue it's on you to recover. אונס vs מזיד
And I don't understand what predisposition has anything to do with being able to commit.

Your last statement is almost correct...It works for those that work it. Most relapses from my experience come from complacency amd failing to rigorously stick to the program. In one of the fellowships it says that one recovers by bringing about a progressive character change. One does this by following the 12 steps and incorporating them in yoir daily life. Therr is no magic pill in 12 step programs or any other recovery option. Its a long road and it takes work that the weak-willed are often not willing to put in.

[aygart]

Being weak willed can sometimes be what allowed the addiction to start.

I don't think we are really disagreeing here.

[hvaces42]

Being weak willed can sometimes be what allowed the addiction to start.

I don't think we are really disagreeing here.

You obviously have no clue about willpower and addicts. Weak-willed or strong willed does not cause the addiction.

[henche]

...and here we go. 12 step programs are not avodah zara. Neither do they require belief in another religion. Where the meetings are held, even if there is avodah zara present, wouldnt come to the level of yehoraig. Stop perpetuating this myth. It doesnt serve anyone.

I'm skeptical. You are sitting in a church, being given a religious message by Christians. 

ETA: http://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/smf-121_en.pdf

[hvaces42]

I'm skeptical. You are sitting in a church, being given a religious message by Christians. 

ETA: http://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/smf-121_en.pdf

Go to an open meeting and stop basing your closed-minded views on what you read on the internet. Oh, i forgot, theyre all held in the church sanctuary with Jesus staring down at you in graven images and blood spattered artifacts.

Really, youre doing people who need help a real disservice by perpetuating this false belief. Maybe next time in in Boston ill take you to a non-church meeting right downtown.

[henche]

You're saying that, but I'm not buying it wholesale.  Are there any published teshuvos?

[hvaces42]

You're saying that, but I'm not buying it wholesale.  Are there any published teshuvos?

I believe you can call Rabbi Dr. Abraham J. Twersky and he can cite them to you chapter and verse. Search out his videos on YouTube. They would do you some good. Buy his book Addictive Thinking. Ill try and find some links to his youtube material.

And there are jewish sponsored AA groups and other Anonymois groups that have no religious message at all. In fact GA 12 steps mention G-d twice and they refer to G-d of ones own understanding.

[henche]

I believe you can call Rabbi Dr. Abraham J. Twersky and he can cite them to you chapter and verse. Search out his videos on YouTube. They would do you some good. Buy his book Addictive Thinking. Ill try and find some links to his youtube material.

He's not a posek.

[hvaces42]

He's not a posek.

Why not? He has semicha. And i didnt say he is the posek. I said he can quote you psak.

[hvaces42]

Ask Rav Elya Brudny who spoke recently at the Amudim event. Is he enough of a moreh horaah for you?

[zh cohen]

I'm skeptical. You are sitting in a church, being given a religious message by Christians. 

ETA: http://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/smf-121_en.pdf

What do you see that is Christian in that list?

If you want to understand the 12 steps from a Jewish perspective, here is a great book.

https://www.amazon.com/God-Our-Understanding-Spirituality-Addiction/dp/1602801533

In it he quotes Bill W (one of the founders of AA) who rejected the idea that the 12 steps are connected to any religion, but explained that every person can understand amd apply them in the context of their beliefs.

[hvaces42]

What do you see that is Christian in that list?

If you want to understand the 12 steps from a Jewish perspective, here is a great book.

https://www.amazon.com/God-Our-Understanding-Spirituality-Addiction/dp/1602801533

In it he quotes Bill W (one of the founders of AA) who rejected the idea that the 12 steps are connected to any religion, but explained that every person can understand amd apply them in the context of their beliefs.

Addictive Thinking: Understanding Self-Deception https://www.amazon.com/dp/1568381387/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_bAxxzbEHACPY8

This too.

[henche]

Want to have a competition over if you can find more 12 steps books and articles with jewish authors or if I can find more with Jesus in the title?

https://www.amazon.com/Steps-Jesus-Spiritual-Emptiness-Addiction/dp/0830734988
https://www.amazon.com/Walking-Steps-Jesus-Christ-control/dp/0979876109
http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/additional-resource/the-12-steps-as-adapted-by-the-church-of-jesus-christ-of-latter-day-saints
http://overcomersoutreach.org/blog/sharing-jesus-with-my-12-step-friends/

[hvaces42]

Want to have a competition over if you can find more 12 steps books and articles with jewish authors or if I can find more with Jesus in the title?

https://www.amazon.com/Steps-Jesus-Spiritual-Emptiness-Addiction/dp/0830734988
https://www.amazon.com/Walking-Steps-Jesus-Christ-control/dp/0979876109
http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/additional-resource/the-12-steps-as-adapted-by-the-church-of-jesus-christ-of-latter-day-saints
http://overcomersoutreach.org/blog/sharing-jesus-with-my-12-step-friends/

And your point is?

Your contention was...

I'm skeptical. You are sitting in a church, being given a religious message by Christians. 

ETA: http://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/smf-121_en.pdf

You've just been shown that your premise is wrong.

And just a note, your signature is offensive in the context of this thread.