Author Topic: Silent Killer  (Read 213548 times)

Offline David Smith

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Who do you think you are fooling? You think you are going to pull a quick one on your Creator? Good luck with that.
JTZ

Offline hvaces42

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Offline henche

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #722 on: July 06, 2017, 10:21:07 AM »
And your point is?

Your contention was...
You've just been shown that your premise is wrong.

And just a note, your signature is offensive in the context of this thread.

I don't know how to remove my signature only for this thread.

My point is this: 

The 12 step program is a Christian program, and the meetings are typically in a church.  I do concede that the steps themselves reference G-d rather than Jesus or Christ. I do not know whether the concepts are Jewish (e.g. asking G-d to remove your imperfections), but are probably not themselves avoda zara.

In that context, I think I would ask a shaila.  That's why I queried if there are any published teshuvos on the topic. 

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #723 on: July 06, 2017, 10:47:54 AM »
I don't know how to remove my signature only for this thread.

My point is this: 

The 12 step program is a Christian program, and the meetings are typically in a church.  I do concede that the steps themselves reference G-d rather than Jesus or Christ. I do not know whether the concepts are Jewish (e.g. asking G-d to remove your imperfections), but are probably not themselves avoda zara.

In that context, I think I would ask a shaila.  That's why I queried if there are any published teshuvos on the topic.
By "Christian" do you mean it was founded by Christians? Because, as you pointed out there are no references to Jesus or Christ.

Together with the 12 Steps there are 12 Traditions which clearly set forth that there is no connection between AA and outside enterprises, including any organized religion.
1. Our common welfare should come first; personal recovery depends upon AA unity.
2. For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority - a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience.
3. Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern.
4. The only requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking.
5. Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or AA as a whole.
6 Each group has but one primary purpose-to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers.
7. An AA group ought never endorse, finance or lend the AA name to any related facility or outside enterprise, lest problems of money, property and prestige divert us from our primary purpose.
8. Every AA group ought to be fully self-supporting, declining outside contributions.
9. Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever nonprofessional, but our service centers may employ special workers.
10. AA, as such, ought never be organized; but we may create service boards or committees directly responsible to those they serve
11. Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy.
Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion; we need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of  press, radio and films.
12. Anonymity is the spiritual foundation of all our traditions, ever reminding us to place principles before personalities.

Going into a church santuary for Pikuach nefesh does not need a psak. I distinctly recall a reform temple in Manhattan that was renting space in a church meeting hall for High Holiday services and there was a Hatzolah call during Kol Nidre at "St. Paul's Church". Heard it with my own ears.  As Rabbi Dr. Twersky properly pointed out and I have stated up above, the dearth of Jewish facilities that are willing to host "Anonymous" meetings does not inherently mean that AA is Christian.

By church do you mean sanctuary or meeting hall?

Also, if you're familiar, are R' Yisrael Salanter's 13 Middos Jewish concepts? I mean, they were only misappropriated from a yiddish translation of Benjamin Franklin's writings. But heck its held out as Kodesh Kodoshim in the yeshiva world.

What is it that you are really questioning here?
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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #724 on: July 06, 2017, 11:14:34 AM »
I don't know how to remove my signature only for this thread.

My point is this: 

The 12 step program is a Christian program, and the meetings are typically in a church.  I do concede that the steps themselves reference G-d rather than Jesus or Christ. I do not know whether the concepts are Jewish (e.g. asking G-d to remove your imperfections), but are probably not themselves avoda zara.

In that context, I think I would ask a shaila.  That's why I queried if there are any published teshuvos on the topic. 

I do think that is a fair question and the idea of getting spiritual guidance from a CHristian in a church does seem strange. In that setting one can easily imagine some deviating from the exact script and focusing on Christian spirituality. On the other hand, these are cases where we should be looking very hard for leniencies. I can see Rabbonim preferring other rehab routes, but sometimes these types of programs have the easiest availability and, other than these issues, the lowest barriers to participation. It ends up becoming a complex shaila. I think I have some maare mekomos that I remember and will try to share if I find them.

The best way to deal with these questions will be to deal with them directly. They are legitimate questions even assuming that they do have answers. To ridicule people asking questions like this
Go to an open meeting and stop basing your closed-minded views on what you read on the internet. Oh, i forgot, theyre all held in the church sanctuary with Jesus staring down at you in graven images and blood spattered artifacts.

Really, youre doing people who need help a real disservice by perpetuating this false belief. Maybe next time in in Boston ill take you to a non-church meeting right downtown.
is the real disservice and will lead some to believe that maybe there isn't a real answer but only sarcasm and ridicule.

ETA: the later answers are dealing with this much better and more substantive.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #725 on: July 06, 2017, 11:32:31 AM »
I do think that is a fair question and the idea of getting spiritual guidance from a CHristian in a church does seem strange. In that setting one can easily imagine some deviating from the exact script and focusing on Christian spirituality. On the other hand, these are cases where we should be looking very hard for leniencies. I can see Rabbonim preferring other rehab routes, but sometimes these types of programs have the easiest availability and, other than these issues, the lowest barriers to participation. It ends up becoming a complex shaila. I think I have some maare mekomos that I remember and will try to share if I find them.

The best way to deal with these questions will be to deal with them directly. They are legitimate questions even assuming that they do have answers. To ridicule people asking questions like thisis the real disservice and will lead some to believe that maybe there isn't a real answer but only sarcasm and ridicule.

ETA: the later answers are dealing with this much better and more substantive.
Spiritual guidance offered at 12 step meetings are supposed to be devoid of religious affiliation. "The word spiritual can be said to describe those characteristics of the human mind that represent the highest and finest qualities such as kindness, generosity, honesty and humility." GA Combo Book

As far as rehab is concerned, I am not a believer that Rehab is the only solution. It is great to get someone into rehab which is a good jumpstart as it can offer an opportunity to detox/clean break and isolates them from everyday distractions that can lead them back to the addiction. However, in practicality, without continued treatment, whether it be 12 step programs, out-patient or in-patient mental health care, private psychotherapy and the like, the likelihood of recidivism/relapse is extremely high. 

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the failure to realize that this is Pikuach Nefesh. Chillul Shabbos D'Oraisa, as in any other Pikuach nefesh situation is warranted. How can you differentiate this from Hatzolah? I dont think there is a single rav who would tell you that going into a church for Pikuach nefesh is not allowed because Christianity is Yehoraig V'al Ya'avor. There is no requirement in any "A" program to believe in Christianity, even if its spoken of and takes place in a church. More so, when that in fact is not the case.

So again, I ask what is the issue?

Anyone that says that 12 step programs are the only solution is wrong. 12 step programs are the maintenance program that, coupled with therapy and other work that is required, will keep one abstinent and recovered.
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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #726 on: July 06, 2017, 11:38:41 AM »
There is no requirement in any "A" program to believe in Christianity, even if its spoken of and takes place in a church. More so, when that in fact is not the case.

So again, I ask what is the issue?

Once it is a spitual program being given by Christians in a church it will lead people to ask questions. The best way to address those question is to show them "look R Moshe said it is okay" and not to debate the specifics of whether i is or isn't a shailo.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #727 on: July 06, 2017, 11:47:02 AM »
Once it is a spitual program being given by Christians in a church it will lead people to ask questions. The best way to address those question is to show them "look R Moshe said it is okay" and not to debate the specifics of whether i is or isn't a shailo.
R' Moshe died in 1986. What was posted above was from 1993. So who, since 1993, would you suggest to be a good enough Posek for you to rule on this. Once again I ask, when the foremost authority on addiction (in and out of the Jewish Community), Rabbi Dr. Abraham J. Twerski, who has no skin in the game, and is a musmach says its allowed and required why do you need someone else?

I have heard from non-religious people in 12 step programs that the Rebbe (for those who need that authority) stated emphatically in the 1970's that frum people should go wherever they need to go to get help for their addictions. I do not have a source for that, yet. 
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Offline henche

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #728 on: July 06, 2017, 12:01:38 PM »
R' Moshe died in 1986. What was posted above was from 1993. So who, since 1993, would you suggest to be a good enough Posek for you to rule on this. Once again I ask, when the foremost authority on addiction (in and out of the Jewish Community), Rabbi Dr. Abraham J. Twerski, who has no skin in the game, and is a musmach says its allowed and required why do you need someone else?

I have heard from non-religious people in 12 step programs that the Rebbe (for those who need that authority) stated emphatically in the 1970's that frum people should go wherever they need to go to get help for their addictions. I do not have a source for that, yet.

Poskim in the U.S. today?  I would think this question should go to Dayan Roth for the chassidim, and to Rav Dovid Feinstein for the litvaks.  In Canada, Rav Shlomo Miller.

Offline shwarmabob

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Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #730 on: July 06, 2017, 12:05:05 PM »
Poskim in the U.S. today?  I would think this question should go to Dayan Roth for the chassidim, and to Rav Dovid Feinstein for the litvaks.  In Canada, Rav Shlomo Miller.
Can you please phrase rhe question that you would like to be asked. I will go into Dayan Roth with your exact question. I had Rav Reuven in my car not too long ago and we discussed going to meetings at length.
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Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #731 on: July 06, 2017, 12:09:55 PM »
http://dinonline.org/2014/08/17/entering-church-basement-for-jews/
Everything i said above.

When Bobov and Satmar and Belz and, and, and...decide to allow space for 12 step programs in their facilities AND the stigma of going to such programs is removed (big AND) then you have alternatives. Until such time as you can do 90 in 90 without going to a church facility  you have no alternative.
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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #732 on: July 06, 2017, 12:10:57 PM »
Poskim in the U.S. today?  I would think this question should go to Dayan Roth for the chassidim, and to Rav Dovid Feinstein for the litvaks.  In Canada, Rav Shlomo Miller.
Definitely along these lines. Rabbi Dr. Twerky may be the foremost authority on addiction but he is not considered a foremost authority on halacha. The question isn't convincing me. I BH do not have this issue and neither do any of my family members. Rabbi Dr. Twerski may have a long list of tshuvos from R Moshe, R Shlomo Zalman, R Elyashiv, R Wosner, the Titz Eliezer, etc which discuss this and are matir. Having that information available will be a much more effective argument since the vast majority would simply defer to their opinion.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline henche

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #733 on: July 06, 2017, 12:12:27 PM »
Can you please phrase rhe question that you would like to be asked. I will go into Dayan Roth with your exact question. I had Rav Reuven in my car not too long ago and we discussed going to meetings at length.

Is it permitted for someone who is addicted to alcohol or narcotics to do the 12 step program with AA?  Do you have any interest in publishing your decision so that people will be able to find it without having to ask the Rav, since they may be embarrassed?

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #734 on: July 06, 2017, 12:13:15 PM »
Definitely along these lines. Rabbi Dr. Twerky may be the foremost authority on addiction but he is not considered a foremost authority on halacha. The question isn't convincing me. I BH do not have this issue and neither do any of my family members. Rabbi Dr. Twerski may have a long list of tshuvos from R Moshe, R Shlomo Zalman, R Elyashiv, R Wosner, the Titz Eliezer, etc which discuss this and are matir. Having that information available will be a much more effective argument since the vast majority would simply defer to their opinion.
At best this was a hidden issue which would never have generated a written psak in the lifetime of those you mention. You know of many such situations.
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Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #735 on: July 06, 2017, 12:15:03 PM »
Is it permitted for someone who is addicted to alcohol or narcotics to do the 12 step program with AA?  Do you have any interest in publishing your decision so that people will be able to find it without having to ask the Rav, since they may be embarrassed?
BL'N i will speak with his son or my neighbor who is on his bais din and try to get a written psak.
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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #736 on: July 06, 2017, 12:16:39 PM »
At best this was a hidden issue which would never have generated a written psak in the lifetime of those you mention. You know of many such situations.
There are many more hidden issues which are discussed in their seforim. I actually would be quite surprised to not find any discussion of this in any tshuvos seforim.
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Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #737 on: July 06, 2017, 12:18:34 PM »
There are many more hidden issues which are discussed in their seforim. I actually would be quite surprised to not find any discussion of this in any tshuvos seforim.
Rav Moshe was known to not write certain Piskei Halacha. And even soe of those he wrote are not included in the new editions :-)
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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #738 on: July 06, 2017, 12:21:00 PM »
Rav Moshe was known to not write certain Piskei Halacha. And even soe of those he wrote are not included in the new editions :-)
I understand and that is partially why I am not referring to any specific machaber just tshuvos in general. One good place to look would be the seforim on medical issues. I will try to check there.
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Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #739 on: July 06, 2017, 02:23:20 PM »
I understand and that is partially why I am not referring to any specific machaber just tshuvos in general. One good place to look would be the seforim on medical issues. I will try to check there.
Some Marie mekomos to start with - u can look at tosfos avoda Zara 27b shayni.. etc..