Silent Killer

[aygart]

Some Marie mekomos to start with - u can look at tosfos avoda Zara 27b shayni.. etc..

As a tactical matter you will be much better off with a psak about this case directly.

[hvaces42]

Some Marie mekomos to start with - u can look at tosfos avoda Zara 27b shayni.. etc..

There is no mention of Christianity, Jesus etc. in 12 step "refuah"

I now think I understand. When a goy writes God you automatically define it as his religion. Even when he qualifies it as "of your understanding". I think the fear is that Jews are not familiar with G-d and will be forced to actually face the fact that the abstracts which are taught in our yeshiva system today do not comport with the realities of life.

[aygart]

There is no mention of Christianity, Jesus etc. in 12 step "refuah"

I now think I understand. When a goy writes God you automatically define it as his religion. Even when he qualifies it as "of your understanding". I think the fear is that Jews are not familiar with G-d and will be forced to actually face the fact that the abstracts which are taught in our yeshiva system today do not comport with the realities of life.

No you are missing the boat. This is not about qualms based on real knowledge of what happens or the importance of it. It is based on ignorance. You will not get anywhere by arguing over the nitty gritty of it since they are not knowledgeable enough to have a real discussion about it. That is why a tosafos won't get you anywhere either. A psak, especially in writing, from the well known poskim will be worth much more because they will defer to the authority. This is purely a tactical issue. Don't get involved in the argument at all.

[churnbabychurn]

There is no mention of Christianity, Jesus etc. in 12 step "refuah"

I now think I understand. When a goy writes God you automatically define it as his religion. Even when he qualifies it as "of your understanding". I think the fear is that Jews are not familiar with G-d and will be forced to actually face the fact that the abstracts which are taught in our yeshiva system today do not comport with the realities of life.

Aygart said he wants to research, I posted a starting point of what I believe to be a pertinent sugiya.

In no way was I implying that there is anything wrong with going to 12 step in a church...

[hvaces42]

No you are missing the boat. This is not about qualms based on real knowledge of what happens or the importance of it. It is based on ignorance. You will not get anywhere by arguing over the nitty gritty of it since they are not knowledgeable enough to have a real discussion about it. That is why a tosafos won't get you anywhere either. A psak, especially in writing, from the well known poskim will be worth much more because they will defer to the authority. This is purely a tactical issue. Don't get involved in the argument at all.

Going to work on that psak.

[Bukboy]

Everything i said above.

When Bobov and Satmar and Belz and, and, and...decide to allow space for 12 step programs in their facilities AND the stigma of going to such programs is removed (big AND) then you have alternatives. Until such time as you can do 90 in 90 without going to a church facility  you have no alternative.

Sorry for taking this a bit off topic, my oldest brother (at this point already a victim of this silent killer ) went a good few years ago to those programs and meetings, my family lives smack in the middle of chassidsha town and the entire neighborhood knew exactly what was going on with him (yea he made some noise on the street) (when the yankees lost a game) and my mother did not kick him out of the house, did not hide at all the fact that he was getting the help he needed and was pretty openly proud of him that he was able to keep sober for like 2 years

[elit]

I don't know how to remove my signature only for this thread.

My point is this: 

The 12 step program is a Christian program, and the meetings are typically in a church.  I do concede that the steps themselves reference G-d rather than Jesus or Christ. I do not know whether the concepts are Jewish (e.g. asking G-d to remove your imperfections), but are probably not themselves avoda zara.

In that context, I think I would ask a shaila.  That's why I queried if there are any published teshuvos on the topic.

I've been to AA meetings for course requirements  (yeah yeah u can skip the jokes already been made) in both church Meeting rooms and in regular business meetings.
I consulted with a rebbe that I believe you are machsiv and if I recall it correctly it was a complete non issue to him. also don't think I heard the word God even once sometimes the references "a higher power whatever you perceive that as"

[hvaces42]

Sorry for taking this a bit off topic, my oldest brother (at this point already a victim of this silent killer ) went a good few years ago to those programs and meetings, my family lives smack in the middle of chassidsha town and the entire neighborhood knew exactly what was going on with him (yea he made some noise on the street) (when the yankees lost a game) and my mother did not kick him out of the house, did not hide at all the fact that he was getting the help he needed and was pretty openly proud of him that he was able to keep sober for like 2 years

Great that he got help but i guarantee there was a stigma attached to him

[Bukboy]

Great that he got help but i guarantee there was a stigma attached to him

Stigma of course! but did that stop my parents and the many other parents from satmer bobov belz etc. that my mother was in touch with getting the help those boys needed absolutely not! 

[hvaces42]

Stigma of course! but did that stop my parents and the many other parents from satmer bobov belz etc. that my mother was in touch with getting the help those boys needed absolutely not!

Good fo them!!! Kol hakavod!!!

[aygart]

Good fo them!!! Kol hakavod!!!

+1000000000000000000000

[Bukboy]

+1000000000000000000000

Good fo them!!! Kol hakavod!!!

Unfortunately my brother (and some of his friends) (that i know) are not around anymore , as if they were lined up waiting NEXT TO GO!!

[churnbabychurn]

Unfortunately my brother (and some of his friends) (that i know) are not around anymore , as if they were lined up waiting NEXT TO GO!!

Yes, a terminal disease will do that.

Thats why prevention and awareness is key.

[aygart]

Unfortunately my brother (and some of his friends) (that i know) are not around anymore , as if they were lined up waiting NEXT TO GO!!

[hvaces42]

Unfortunately my brother (and some of his friends) (that i know) are not around anymore , as if they were lined up waiting NEXT TO GO!!

Nebech

Prison, insanity or death.

[David Smith]

Unfortunately my brother (and some of his friends) (that i know) are not around anymore , as if they were lined up waiting NEXT TO GO!!

BDE. May 'ה give you and your family strength.
 

[Bukboy]

Nebech

Prison, insanity or death.

What about prison, NYU treatment (insanity), prison again (for selling prescribed drugs) and then found on yom tov death in some shelter apt. or whatever they call it! and that's after AA meetings, programs and therapy 

[Bukboy]

BDE. May 'ה give you and your family strength.
 

Umein and thanks!

[ExGingi]

What about prison, NYU treatment (insanity), prison again (for selling prescribed drugs) and then found on yom tov death in some shelter apt. or whatever they call it! and that's after AA meetings, programs and therapy

Too painful to even imagine.

[Bukboy]

Too painful to even imagine.

Shouldn't of go into details.
I think i smoked too much