Author Topic: Silent Killer  (Read 112845 times)

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #840 on: July 18, 2017, 10:42:48 PM »
The way he ended off ruined it all. He won't accomplish much with that attitude. The same way your cynicism to the people you don't agree with doesn't do much to endear you to others and help get a valid point across.
Again, i posted without comment. Just tell me why its not a valid article explaining how someone loses faith in daas torah, albiet possibly for all the wrong reasons.
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Offline thaber

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #841 on: July 18, 2017, 11:09:38 PM »
I posted without comment. I can say that 2 individuals who are sitting in prison today because of people like this may actually be innocent. So please dont fault me for posting an article that may be relevant to the discussion in understanding  the feeling of disenfranchisement. Maybe it belonged in the interesting articles thread. I have no further comment on the article. Who said there are no other choshuva people? There are tons.

Again, i posted without comment. Just tell me why its not a valid article explaining how someone loses faith in daas torah, albiet possibly for all the wrong reasons.
Posting without comment is a tactical endorsement, especially in this thread (or the politics one).
Disenfranchised kids is not a chidush. I personally spend many hours a day with several of them. I think we all understand their point of view, and can appreciate them without repeating their feelings that are counter to our hashkafa

Offline aygart

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #842 on: July 18, 2017, 11:13:50 PM »


Posting without comment is a tactical endorsement, especially in this thread (or the politics one).


I disagree. I and many others have posted articles with which we do not agree.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline thaber

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #843 on: July 18, 2017, 11:16:28 PM »

I disagree. I and many others have posted articles with which we do not agree.
Conceded. Context dependant.

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #844 on: July 18, 2017, 11:17:29 PM »
Posting without comment is a tactical endorsement, especially in this thread (or the politics one).
Disenfranchised kids is not a chidush. I personally spend many hours a day with several of them. I think we all understand their point of view, and can appreciate them without repeating their feelings that are counter to our hashkafa
So posting something here means i endorse it? Wow. I learn something new every day. Also, your attempt at censorship is EXACTLY what has been argued here over and over as sweeping things under tbe rug. Good job proving a point.
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Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #845 on: July 18, 2017, 11:18:25 PM »

I disagree. I and many others have posted articles with which we do not agree.
Thank you. I thought i was crazy fot a second.
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Offline CS1

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #846 on: July 18, 2017, 11:41:27 PM »
In Moshe Rabbeinus times beis would give malkus with 2 edim and hasraa or makus mardus in other cases. One underlying issue in this generation is that people don't take responsibility for their actions. Chas Vshalom to discipline a child in yeshiva these days...
My Rosh Yeshiva used to quote either the Chazon Ish or the Steipler (don't remember which) that we should teach children the concepts of schar vonesh and not be worried about scaring the child off learning about hell.
This doesn't mean to say that we should kick all bad kids out of school but we can't always baby everyone all the time and sometimes you need to put your foot down and accept that people make their own choices.

I've been a classroom teacher for several years, and I agree that consistent discipline is needed and of great importance and assists in raising successful, Torah observant Yidden.
However, the issues here are going to CVS when not during school hours, and the Klein parents saying that their daughter asked a question that was interpreted as nivul peh. These are NOT reasons to kick out vulnerable students in a life-or-death situation towards the end of the school year, regardless of the 'policy' of putting your foot down.
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Offline thaber

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #847 on: July 18, 2017, 11:48:06 PM »
So posting something here means i endorse it? Wow. I learn something new every day.
Like I said, context dependent. In the Interesting articles thread, no. In the politics thread, also no. In this thread, by you, who are a valiant and ardent defender of youth such as the one who wrote the article (for which I admire you), yes I took it as an endorsement. And I concede that it was clearly misplaced and I apologize.

your attempt at censorship is EXACTLY what has been argued here over and over as sweeping things under the rug. Good job proving a point.
I have no idea what you're referring to.

It's silly to quibble here, and I'm sorry if I am. We all agree that the silence, and sweeping issues under the rug isn't helpful. (we may differ on degrees) We all agree that helping struggling kids when they are 13 is a lot better than raising money for their rehab or c'v worse. And we are all searching for a solution. I just have a really hard time when it devolves into a denigration of Chashuva Yidden and Talmedei Chachamim, many of whom lose many more nights of sleep and shed many more tears than the average guy on his soapbox in the mikva.

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #848 on: July 18, 2017, 11:59:06 PM »
Apology accepted. Maybe i wasnt clear. Let me clarify. Denigrating Jews, good, better or otherwise, is counterproductive. I dont agree with the tactics. I do find value in the article in understanding the mindset and the level of frustration.

I can empathize as I'm going through hoops to get a written psak permitting attendance at "A" meetings in a church meeting hall or basement where there is no mention of Christian theology. Its dinei nefashos we are dealing with and no one wants to take a stand or has the guts to put it in writing for publoc consumption.

That being said i will never "out" those people. A federal appeals judge once told me, "Don't annoy the mind you're trying to persuade." Another person told me not to poke the bear. Combine those 2 statements and you have the beginning of a philosophy.
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Offline CS1

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #849 on: July 19, 2017, 12:02:40 AM »
many years ago i took a one-week drivers ed course in a church classroom (not a worshipping room), definitely 100% okayed by the Rabbis. k''vch, something even more important.

The "AA" meetings are 100%-allowed by any Rabbi that I've spoken too, and definitely Rabbi Twerski has this in writing. It's dangerous to wait -- have him start right away.... Written specifically for this individual should be instant. In today's world, every day counts.
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Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #850 on: July 19, 2017, 12:06:57 AM »
many years ago i took a one-week drivers ed course in a church classroom (not a worshipping room), definitely 100% okayed by the Rabbis. k''vch, something even more important.

The "AA" meetings are 100%-allowed by any Rabbi that I've spoken too, and definitely Rabbi Twerski has this in writing. It's dangerous to wait -- have him start right away.... Written specifically for this individual should be instant. In today's world, every day counts.
Read upthread. They want specific rabbanim to cover their bases. According to those who want excuses to continue their addictions youre a sheigetz :-) and will burn.
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Offline CS1

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #851 on: July 19, 2017, 12:24:12 AM »
Read upthread. They want specific rabbanim to cover their bases. According to those who want excuses to continue their addictions youre a sheigetz :-) and will burn.

rabbanim are not equipped for this. Crimes are beyond their control. When there is a deadly fire, we call 911/Fire department with hoses, trucks, ladders, and hydrant openers.
A 10-yr old already died from an opioid overdose. The victims will get younger if this isn't crisis isn't treated by professionals: https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/officials-boy-10-among-youngest-victims-opioid-crisis-104352263.html
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Offline thaber

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #852 on: July 19, 2017, 12:32:03 AM »
pikuach nefech didn't help the Rashba. But it's crazy that you're having a hard time.

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #853 on: July 19, 2017, 08:17:33 AM »
pikuach nefech didn't help the Rashba. But it's crazy that you're having a hard time.
I remember seeing R' Moshe's psak mentioned. I'm gonna pull that out again. I doubt the Rashba would have an issue with what we are discussing. That being said, the only value i did see in that article is the sympathetic feeling i have for the writer that is trying to get something done and cant get anyone to stick out their neck on a non-issue.

Addicts will find every excuse not to get help. They will deny there is a problem. They will say they have it under control. Short of going to rehab, which is extreme IMO and should only be done to jumpstart recovery, detox, and to seperate the addict from their regular environment, what other options are there? Therapy, which helps but only with CASAC trained therapists; self-control, which doesnt work alone; or 12 step meetings, which work in conjunction with self-control and therapy.

To give an addict an excuse is to give them additional kindling to fuel their addiction. We should be looking to find every leniency in the book to help them. A friend of mine once suggested writing a sefer on all the kulos we could rely on as opposed to the seforim that are out there that are always looking for the next level of chumrah. There is something to be said for that.
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Offline zh cohen

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #854 on: July 19, 2017, 11:59:16 AM »
pikuach nefech didn't help the Rashba. But it's crazy that you're having a hard time.

Anyone know where the Rashbo is? Wondering if it is referring to the sanctuary, or anywhere in the building

Offline coralsnake

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #855 on: July 19, 2017, 11:32:35 PM »
Are we really telling people who are cooking and shooting heroin on Shabbos not to go into a church basement?
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Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #856 on: July 19, 2017, 11:33:54 PM »
Are we really telling people who are cooking and shooting heroin on Shabbos not to go into a church basement?
Sounds absurd, doesnt it? And a psak din in writing will make that more palatable. Hear hear.
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Offline CS1

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #857 on: July 20, 2017, 12:26:38 AM »
Are we really telling people who are cooking and shooting heroin on Shabbos not to go into a church basement?
Sounds absurd, doesnt it? And a psak din in writing will make that more palatable. Hear hear.
+100
Exactly, even those at risk for picking it up once can rest assured that it's actually a mitzvah to go there and heal. or even bring a friend there. Literally life-or-death.

I can totally see Rabbi Twerski walking someone there, and I'm sure that he has items of that nature in writing, as well. His son Rabbi Ben-Tzion Twerski may be a good person to reinforce how important this treatment and prevention is. We can even have our own AA in shuls/kosher places if we are smart. Prevention is key.
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Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #858 on: July 20, 2017, 12:28:58 AM »
+100
Exactly, even those at risk for picking it up once can rest assured that it's actually a mitzvah to go there and heal. or even bring a friend there. Literally life-or-death.

I can totally see Rabbi Twerski walking someone there, and I'm sure that he has items of that nature in writing, as well. His son Rabbi Ben-Tzion Twerski may be a good person to reinforce how important this treatment and prevention is. We can even have our own AA in shuls/kosher places if we are smart. Prevention is key.
Never gonna happen because of the stigma. Shidduchim etc.
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Offline CS1

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #859 on: July 20, 2017, 01:01:47 AM »
Never gonna happen because of the stigma. Shidduchim etc.

once we can treat a physical, chemical imbalance, or a predisposition to addiction with the same approach as a broken arm or sprained ankle that needs medical treatment, casting/wrapping/support/therapy/healing, and treatment plus prevention from future injuries, then all of Klal Yisroel can be more healthy and confident.

Keeping these conditions quiet and repressing them will only make shidduchim worse (if we can reach that age before becoming addicted or a victim), and can also harm and put at risk one's future children, family, and friends...
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