Author Topic: Silent Killer  (Read 112648 times)

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #860 on: July 20, 2017, 01:04:31 AM »
once we can treat a physical, chemical imbalance, or a predisposition to addiction with the same approach as a broken arm or sprained ankle that needs medical treatment, casting/wrapping/support/therapy/healing, and treatment plus prevention from future injuries, then all of Klal Yisroel can be more healthy and confident.

Keeping these conditions quiet and repressing them will only make shidduchim worse (if we can reach that age before becoming addicted or a victim), and can also harm and put at risk one's future children, family, and friends...
Exactly. Scariest issue not spoken about in shidduchim today.
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Offline yuneeq

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #861 on: July 20, 2017, 08:10:12 AM »
Never gonna happen because of the stigma. Shidduchim etc.

Did you ever hear of SAFE?  http://www.thesafefoundation.org/
They have meetings.

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #862 on: July 20, 2017, 08:12:53 AM »
Did you ever hear of SAFE?  http://www.thesafefoundation.org/
They have meetings.
Of course. I know Ike D. Been there many times. Thats one location in a city of 8 million.
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Offline yuneeq

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #863 on: July 20, 2017, 08:33:46 AM »
Of course. I know Ike D. Been there many times. Thats one location in a city of 8 million.

So why do you say a kosher spot is "never" gonna happen?
If there's a kosher meeting that's been around for over a decade, there can be more.

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #864 on: July 20, 2017, 08:45:24 AM »
So why do you say a kosher spot is "never" gonna happen?
If there's a kosher meeting that's been around for over a decade, there can be more.
1. Thats a business that has made its place of business available for meetings, which supplements and brings new business all the time.
2. Its still in an out of the way location. Go there when meetings are held. Its downright frightening. Deserted industrial area.
3. In over a decade there is one you point to and a few others that i am aware of that you have not mentioned. By and large the concept of a "kosher meeting" (i suppose you mean non-church location) cannot happen within our community because of the stigmas spoken about upthread.

 So when you can hold a meeting in one of the classrooms in Bobov or Satmar or Belz in Boro Park like the meetings that are held in certain non-orthodox establishments elsewhere in the city then i will say it can happen.
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Offline CS1

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #865 on: July 20, 2017, 09:03:31 AM »
1. Thats a business that has made its place of business available for meetings, which supplements and brings new business all the time.
2. Its still in an out of the way location. Go there when meetings are held. Its downright frightening. Deserted industrial area.
3. In over a decade there is one you point to and a few others that i am aware of that you have not mentioned. By and large the concept of a "kosher meeting" (i suppose you mean non-church location) cannot happen within our community because of the stigmas spoken about upthread.


So when you can hold a meeting in one of the classrooms in Bobov or Satmar or Belz in Boro Park like the meetings that are held in certain non-orthodox establishments elsewhere in the city then i will say it can happen.

Exactly. This is where the education and prevention classes are needed, in addition to treatment classes.
We've had local Jewish AA meetings in a local Orthodox shul here, and possibly saved dozens of lives. Parenting classes may help, as well.

Camp XTreme has saved lives, Kosher rehabs in CA have saved lives.

Will it take a child of a "Bobov or Satmar or Belz in Boro Park" gezhe to ch'v get sick and/or pass away until they finally make local, Jewish classes?!?!?

And if so, then does this mean that their child is of greater value than the others who have already become victims?!?!?

And if so, then is this what it means to be a Jewish leader? To not address other members of the same community?

And to not address an epidemic that is certain to increase until preventions and treatments are as mainstream and non-stigmatic as an ace bandage or a cast/crutches for those who are injured?

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Offline elit

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #866 on: July 20, 2017, 01:58:07 PM »
Exactly. This is where the education and prevention classes are needed, in addition to treatment classes.
We've had local Jewish AA meetings in a local Orthodox shul here, and possibly saved dozens of lives. Parenting classes may help, as well.

Camp XTreme has saved lives, Kosher rehabs in CA have saved lives.

Will it take a child of a "Bobov or Satmar or Belz in Boro Park" gezhe to ch'v get sick and/or pass away until they finally make local, Jewish classes?!?!?

And if so, then does this mean that their child is of greater value than the others who have already become victims?!?!?

And if so, then is this what it means to be a Jewish leader? To not address other members of the same community?

And to not address an epidemic that is certain to increase until preventions and treatments are as mainstream and non-stigmatic as an ace bandage or a cast/crutches for those who are injured?
It's not AA meetings but they- https://www.facebook.com/12Twenty5/
are right in Boro park

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #867 on: July 20, 2017, 02:03:21 PM »
What are "they". Dont tell me an Our Place type place. Because thats not what is being discussed here. We are not talking about OTD drop in centers. We are talking 12 step recovery programs.
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Offline AsherO

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #868 on: July 20, 2017, 02:05:37 PM »
Exactly. This is where the education and prevention classes are needed, in addition to treatment classes.
We've had local Jewish AA meetings in a local Orthodox shul here, and possibly saved dozens of lives. Parenting classes may help, as well.

Camp XTreme has saved lives, Kosher rehabs in CA have saved lives.

Will it take a child of a "Bobov or Satmar or Belz in Boro Park" gezhe to ch'v get sick and/or pass away until they finally make local, Jewish classes?!?!?

And if so, then does this mean that their child is of greater value than the others who have already become victims?!?!?

And if so, then is this what it means to be a Jewish leader? To not address other members of the same community?

And to not address an epidemic that is certain to increase until preventions and treatments are as mainstream and non-stigmatic as an ace bandage or a cast/crutches for those who are injured?

Unfortunately even that would be swept under the rug.

Offline CS1

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #869 on: July 20, 2017, 02:57:18 PM »
Unfortunately even that would be swept under the rug.

If these addictions or chemical imbalance issues are seen as broken arms that need a cast or strep throat that needs antibiotics, then they have the chance to be treated and healed. We can also teach how to prevent more of this just like we know what needs to be done to lower the risks and prevent strep/broken bones (when possible). Parents and balanced stable are key, as well. The leaders can promote it and make it a priority if/when they promote this education publicly.

On a similar note, if the leaders and rabbis are not seeing current facts the way they are, and it is almost like idolatry/avoda zara, Quote in this video "When you reject reality, you are rejecting the Author of reality."

Rabbis who can see the current state of individual's reality, regardless of how they got there, will encourage AA regardless of what room or building it is in. Emotional Sobriety is key towards accepting what Hashem is doing. Great points in this link by Rabbi Shais Taub: http://bit.ly/RabbiSTaubGodAndSobriety
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Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #870 on: July 20, 2017, 03:03:00 PM »
Our learned friend @aygart together with a good portion of society believes its a self-control issue, not a disease. There are judges who refuse to acknowledge that too and sentence addicts to lengthy jail terms for crimes committed as a ditect result of their addiction.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #871 on: July 20, 2017, 03:07:39 PM »
Our learned friend @aygart together with a good portion of society believes its a self-control issue, not a disease. There are judges who refuse to acknowledge that too and sentence addicts to lengthy jail terms for crimes committed as a ditect result of their addiction.
You are using a false absolute. Do you feel that self control is not a factor at all in the vast majority of addictions? If so how can a 12 step plan possibly help at all?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #872 on: July 20, 2017, 03:12:05 PM »
You are using a false absolute. Do you feel that self control is not a factor at all in the vast majority of addictions? If so how can a 12 step plan possibly help at all?
Is self control a component in the cure for schizophrenia? If yes then is schizophrenia just a lack of self control, or a Bonafide mental illness?

Offline CS1

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #873 on: July 20, 2017, 03:13:14 PM »
You are using a false absolute. Do you feel that self control is not a factor at all in the vast majority of addictions? If so how can a 12 step plan possibly help at all?

it's obviously a combination. You can have self-control, yet the more people who are in this 'mode' locally, the more it will spread. We see it already.

Also, it's a disease that people are much more tempted and susceptible to it. Cigarettes are both self-control and your environment.
I have no taayva to these things, yet for the people who do -- it rules their lives. (And yes, it's a disease that can be quit with self-control; it's extremely hard.)
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Offline aygart

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #874 on: July 20, 2017, 03:17:00 PM »
Is self control a component in the cure for schizophrenia? If yes then is schizophrenia just a lack of self control, or a Bonafide mental illness?
What does that have to do with anything I wrote?
it's obviously a combination. You can have self-control, yet the more people who are in this 'mode' locally, the more it will spread. We see it already.

Also, it's a disease that people are much more tempted and susceptible to it. Cigarettes are both self-control and your environment.
I have no taayva to these things, yet for the people who do -- it rules their lives. (And yes, it's a disease that can be quit with self-control; it's extremely hard.)

I never argued that it is not a combination. That is what I meant by calling him out on his (very common when he describes anything I write on this subject) false absolute.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #875 on: July 20, 2017, 03:30:53 PM »
You are using a false absolute. Do you feel that self control is not a factor at all in the vast majority of addictions? If so how can a 12 step plan possibly help at all?
Do you believe its a disease? Yes or no. No one chooses to have a disease. Its that simple. If you can grasp your head around that concept then i was wrong. If you say that for one second it has to do with self control then a cancer patient should control their bad cells too. If you differentiate between the diseases then yoir position is absolue on self control.
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Offline AsherO

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #876 on: July 20, 2017, 03:33:56 PM »
If these addictions or chemical imbalance issues are seen as broken arms that need a cast or strep throat that needs antibiotics, then they have the chance to be treated and healed. We can also teach how to prevent more of this just like we know what needs to be done to lower the risks and prevent strep/broken bones (when possible). Parents and balanced stable are key, as well. The leaders can promote it and make it a priority if/when they promote this education publicly.

I'm not sure how you're replying to what your quoted. All I said was that even if it happened (Ch"V) in their own families it's possible these leaders wouldn't change their stance.

Offline aygart

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #877 on: July 20, 2017, 03:34:38 PM »
Do you believe its a disease? Yes or no. No one chooses to have a disease. Its that simple. If you can grasp your head around that concept then i was wrong. If you say that for one second it has to do with self control then a cancer patient should control their bad cells too. If you differentiate between the diseases then yoir position is absolue on self control.
You answer first. From what I remember you have never yet given a straight yes or no or otherwise unequivocal answer in this entire thread.

Do you feel that self control is not a factor at all in the vast majority of addictions? If so how can a 12 step plan possibly help at all?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #878 on: July 20, 2017, 03:36:35 PM »
Disease that no amount of self control can help. It can be arrested but never cured.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #879 on: July 20, 2017, 03:39:16 PM »
Disease that no amount of self control can help. It can be arrested but never cured.
So how can a 12 step system (which is based primarily on self control) be of any help at all?

Are you referring to someone who is already addicted or the "future addict" that it is inevitable that they will become addicted?
Feelings don't care about your facts