Author Topic: Silent Killer  (Read 112497 times)

Offline hvaces42

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Nov 2013
  • Posts: 5217
  • Total likes: 923
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #880 on: July 20, 2017, 03:50:26 PM »
So how can a 12 step system (which is based primarily on self control) be of any help at all?

Are you referring to someone who is already addicted or the "future addict" that it is inevitable that they will become addicted?
Its not based on self control its based on a support system, attending meetings, changing ones lifestyle, character change, filling the void, admitting powerlessness over the disease, finding a Higher Power, listening to a voice other than ones own, taking an inventory both globally and daily, sharing your inventory of yourself with another person and ypur Higher Power, asking for help from ypir higher power to have your defects of character removed, Making a list of people one harmed, making amends to those people, seeking a better connection to God and helping others who still suffer.

So now that you know what 12 steps are about, do you want to stick to your self control garbage. Educate yourself before you make blanket statements.

And yes, pre-addiction self control MAY help. Most addicts are predisposed and are deeply flawed individuals who usually end up acting out in one way or another. There is no way to prove someone is an addict and because of self control didnt act on the addiction.
Fair warning - Any PMs sent in response to forum posts are fair game for ridicule in public.

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 13063
  • Total likes: 7715
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #881 on: July 20, 2017, 03:53:22 PM »
Its not based on self control its based on a support system, attending meetings, changing ones lifestyle, character change, filling the void, admitting powerlessness over the disease, finding a Higher Power, listening to a voice other than ones own, taking an inventory both globally and daily, sharing your inventory of yourself with another person and ypur Higher Power, asking for help from ypir higher power to have your defects of character removed, Making a list of people one harmed, making amends to those people, seeking a better connection to God and helping others who still suffer.

So now that you know what 12 steps are about, do you want to stick to your self control garbage. Educate yourself before you make blanket statements.

And yes, pre-addiction self control MAY help. Most addicts are predisposed and are deeply flawed individuals who usually end up acting out in one way or another. There is no way to prove someone is an addict and because of self control didnt act on the addiction.
Every single one of those 12 steps are strategies to help with self control. They definitely don't change his chemical imbalance.

Either way, I only said anything about self control pre-addiction.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Online AsherO

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 20K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 26050
  • Total likes: 3215
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 75
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #882 on: July 20, 2017, 03:58:54 PM »
are deeply flawed individuals

Not saying it is one, but that sounds like a judgement.

They definitely don't change his chemical imbalance.

What do you know about neuroscience and what does and doesn't change brain chemistry?

Offline hvaces42

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Nov 2013
  • Posts: 5217
  • Total likes: 923
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #883 on: July 20, 2017, 04:03:33 PM »
Not saying it is one, but that sounds like a judgement.
Most addictions are borne out of character defects which come from something in the past. I dont personally care why one is an addict or find it important at all to know. I just know that addicts that follow the 12 steps regularly, encompass them in their lives, attend meetings regularly, use the tools of support that the programs provide are always successful in arresting their diseases progression and recovering.

If its a judgment to say that the seeking of a high is to cover up some pain in ones past, whatever high that may be, drugs, alcohol, sex, gambling, food, rhen im judgmental. It just my experience over the last 7 years being around addicts every day that has given me any of the insights i choose to share.
Fair warning - Any PMs sent in response to forum posts are fair game for ridicule in public.

Online AsherO

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 20K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 26050
  • Total likes: 3215
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 75
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #884 on: July 20, 2017, 04:06:25 PM »
Most addictions are borne out of character defects which come from something in the past.

I don't think trauma, anxiety, depression, low self-esteem, or PTSD (to name a few) are character defects.

Offline hvaces42

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Nov 2013
  • Posts: 5217
  • Total likes: 923
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #885 on: July 20, 2017, 04:09:26 PM »
I don't think trauma, anxiety, depression, low self-esteem, or PTSD (to name a few) are character defects.
You are looking at them as defects in a person. Thats not what i mean. They may be environmental defects that affected a person and 12 steps will help with those in conjunction with therapy and sometimes even meds.
Fair warning - Any PMs sent in response to forum posts are fair game for ridicule in public.

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 13063
  • Total likes: 7715
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #886 on: July 20, 2017, 04:52:53 PM »
What do you know about neuroscience and what does and doesn't change brain chemistry?
More than you may realize. EVERYTHING affects brain chemistry. That is what neuroplasticity is mostly about. Family support affects brain chemistry in a way that make self control easier, for example. If this is what is being referred to by chemical imbalance in the brain then everything I had mentioned as promoting self control similarly affects brain chemistry. My mentions of self control were never that we should simply tell an addict that they shoould have some self control contrary no matter what hvaces42's responses to me may lead you to believe. He simply does not grasp what I am saying.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2017, 05:18:49 PM by aygart »
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 13063
  • Total likes: 7715
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #887 on: July 20, 2017, 05:26:05 PM »
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline henche

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2011
  • Posts: 3904
  • Total likes: 435
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #888 on: July 20, 2017, 05:28:57 PM »
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjH_P_f4pjVAhVMNz4KHVOxBWYQFghQMAY&url=https%3A%2F%2Fpubs.niaaa.nih.gov%2Fpublications%2Farh40%2F64-75.pdf&usg=AFQjCNEGbpHDOhRVzrk19Ttk5OXaaC3Lag

Twin, adoption, and family studies conclusively demonstrated that genetic factors account for 50 to 60 percent of the variance in risk for developing alcoholism

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4545669/

I don't believe in twin and adoption studies. Way too big of confounding factors.

Offline henche

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2011
  • Posts: 3904
  • Total likes: 435
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #889 on: July 20, 2017, 05:32:25 PM »
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjH_P_f4pjVAhVMNz4KHVOxBWYQFghQMAY&url=https%3A%2F%2Fpubs.niaaa.nih.gov%2Fpublications%2Farh40%2F64-75.pdf&usg=AFQjCNEGbpHDOhRVzrk19Ttk5OXaaC3Lag

Twin, adoption, and family studies conclusively demonstrated that genetic factors account for 50 to 60 percent of the variance in risk for developing alcoholism

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4545669/

Also,  just because genetic factors exist doesn't make them the most important factor.

Most ppl with those genes don't become addicts

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 13063
  • Total likes: 7715
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #890 on: July 20, 2017, 05:34:28 PM »
Also,  just because genetic factors exist doesn't make them the most important factor.

Most ppl with those genes don't become addicts
I agree but do not have specific knowledge of percentages.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline henche

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2011
  • Posts: 3904
  • Total likes: 435
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #891 on: July 20, 2017, 05:38:09 PM »
More than you may realize. EVERYTHING affects brain chemistry. That is what neuroplasticity is mostly about. Family support affects brain chemistry in a way that make self control easier, for example. If this is what is being referred to by chemical imbalance in the brain then everything I had mentioned as promoting self control similarly affects brain chemistry. My mentions of self control were never that we should simply tell an addict that they shoould have some self control contrary no matter what hvaces42's responses to me may lead you to believe. He simply does not grasp what I am saying.

Just this.

Your brain works via chemicals. If you have sad triggers, brain releasesurgery the sad hormones, and you feel sad.

Then some groisseh  genius scientist notices that depressed ppl have that chemical and derives thar the chemical causes sad instead of the order way around.

You're just lucky they didn't study burns and derive that burns are caused by neurons picking up pain signals, so the way to treat them is to numb the nerves

Offline hvaces42

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Nov 2013
  • Posts: 5217
  • Total likes: 923
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #892 on: July 20, 2017, 05:59:47 PM »
What is self control?
Fair warning - Any PMs sent in response to forum posts are fair game for ridicule in public.

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 13063
  • Total likes: 7715
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #893 on: July 20, 2017, 06:14:51 PM »
What is self control?
Saying no despite an urge to do somwthing

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-control
Self-control, an aspect of inhibitory control, is the ability to regulate one's emotions, thoughts, and behavior in the face of temptations and impulses. As an executive function, self-control is a cognitive process that is necessary for regulating one's behavior in order to achieve specific goals [2]
« Last Edit: July 20, 2017, 06:18:25 PM by aygart »
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline hvaces42

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Nov 2013
  • Posts: 5217
  • Total likes: 923
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #894 on: July 20, 2017, 06:20:26 PM »
Saying no despite an urge to do somwthing

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-control
Self-control, an aspect of inhibitory control, is the ability to regulate one's emotions, thoughts, and behavior in the face of temptations and impulses. As an executive function, self-control is a cognitive process that is necessary for regulating one's behavior in order to achieve specific goals [2]
Just say no, right?
Fair warning - Any PMs sent in response to forum posts are fair game for ridicule in public.

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 13063
  • Total likes: 7715
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #895 on: July 20, 2017, 06:21:38 PM »
Just say no, right?
If self control is the only aspect of it then yes.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline hvaces42

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Nov 2013
  • Posts: 5217
  • Total likes: 923
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #896 on: July 20, 2017, 06:38:11 PM »
If self control is the only aspect of it then yes.
Nancy Reagan created that slogan for the war on drugs. How'd that work out?
Fair warning - Any PMs sent in response to forum posts are fair game for ridicule in public.

Offline henche

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2011
  • Posts: 3904
  • Total likes: 435
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #897 on: July 20, 2017, 06:39:17 PM »
Nancy Reagan created that slogan for the war on drugs. How'd that work out?

Really well.  Most ppl dont use

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 13063
  • Total likes: 7715
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #898 on: July 20, 2017, 06:40:38 PM »
Nancy Reagan created that slogan for the war on drugs. How'd that work out?
Horribly. Shows that just telling people to have self control without creating an environment conducive to it or make it easier to exercise that self control or other factors is inadequate.

I think it will be very beneficial to you to make an effort to understand what someone is saying before arguing with them.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2017, 06:43:41 PM by aygart »
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 13063
  • Total likes: 7715
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #899 on: July 20, 2017, 06:41:05 PM »
Really well.  Most ppl dont use
Most did not use before that slogan either.
Feelings don't care about your facts